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HomeMy WebLinkAboutSpecial City Council Minutes 02.12.1980Minutes of the City Council of Laurel February 12, 1980 A special meeting of the City Council of the City of Laurel, Montana, was held in the Council Chambers and called to order by Mayor Larry D. Herman, at 7:00 p.m., on February 12, 1980. The purpose of this meeting was a hearing on SID COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Albert Ehrlick Bill Brennan Harold Burns Susan Carter Duane Behm Terry Fink Donald Meyers COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Ervin Metzger This being the time and place as advertised, a public hearing was held regarding the proposed SID 103. DAVE M¢CULLOUGH: Engineer for the project said that he wanted to make it clear from the outset that he certainly can appreciate the fact that there are a lot of costs involved here, and those that oppose this because of the cost, I would like to clear up any misconception as to the validity of the cost estimate. It is the engineer's responsibility to establish a cost and it is the maximum. No bids could be let if they exceeded this maximum. The district boundary is outlined according to the map which has been presented. A street improvement project involves a.certain amount of excavation, then placing a certain amount of crushed gravel, shaping the existing street to a good crown section, compacting, and preparing it for the 2" to 3" asphalt mat. There are paving costs other than right in front of your house which need to be spread out over the entire district, such as intersections in the street and alley and other paving which is associated with a complete project. Other construction costs which are spread out over the entire area in- clude engineer's fees, soil testing, drainage items, existing curb that does not fit into the proper grade which has to be torn up and replaced, curb turns (corners) and non-existant alley approaches. There are certain areas where they do not have curb and gutter at the present time and this would be done under the contract and will be assessed directly to the property benefitted. Other additional costs involved are fiscal, legal and administrative. Five per cent goes into the City Revolving Fund to protect the tax payers of the entire City of Laurel from any default by tax payers within an $ID. Mr. McCullough also explained the estimated annual cost to the property owner and what affect it might have on their tax return. He also explained that the reason why some property was left out of the district was because half of the street was in the City and the other half in the County, and the City has a policy not to pave half a street. At this time the hearing was opened to the public for engineering questions only. DOUG TOOMBS asked, "Now thick is the mat going to be?" Ans: "A minimum of two inches," from Dave McCullough. page 2 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel "Why tear up the streets that are already paved?" Dave McCullough asked, "Do they have 2" of mat on them?" Doug answered, "Yes." Dave responded, "It was a judgement of where the streets have a double surface treatment which is a high type of maintenance rather than permanent. BOB (no last name) would like to know where Dave gets his information about high maintenance costs. On 5th Avenue the City never has been up there to maintain it. Aris: Dave McCullough stated, "I am not talking about any particular street in Laurel but I am speaking of the type of double seal coat in general that does not have the lower maintenance figure as the permanent type surfacing. COLEN RAMSEY asked, "If you 'intend to resurface just a couple of streets, why not the entire town? I know of other streets in Laurel that are built the same way, so why not include the whole town? Ans: Dave McCullough said, "Because they provide access to property owners in the district that do need the improvements." JOYCE SCHESSLER said, "I live on Laurmac Lane and there are two lots on our street that are out of the City limits and we have already had our street paved and you are not going to pave those two lots. You are going to whack the street off before you get to them and right after. Now if you do not pave half a street because of bad maintenance why are you not going to pave those two lots? I feel they should have left the whole area out because it has already been paved. Ans: Dave McCullough stated, "This is a sore subject with me, but because it is in the County, it could not be included." DICK POTTER said, "You mentioned the fact that there maybe some curbs and gutters that need to be replaced because of previous errors. Doesn't the City or whoever was responsible have an errors and ommissions policy that would cover something like this?" No one present knew the answer. JIM BURROWS said, "I live on llth Street and you say you want to tear that up because it is an access street. The street south of the park is more of an access street than llth, because you have a straight shot coming up through there and you do not have to turn around to park. Eleventh Street is a darn good street." DONNA HOKLIN stated, "I was told that right by the bridge on Beartooth that you are going to stop 12' this side of the bridge with the hard top. Is that true? Aris: Dave McCullough said, "We can not go beyond the district boundary. I do not know if it is 12' JOHN HABERLOCK said, "You just talked about 14th and of gravel getting up on the asphalt and unravelling it. Is that true? Ans: Dave Mc- Cullough stated, "Yes." "How about that over on 8th Avenue and on Laurmac and 7th? What is going to happen to that half block on 8th and 7th? Ans: Dave McCul- lough stated, "I do not like the situation, but the district boundary had to be drawn a certain way, and it has been drawn for better or for worse." "Who drew up the boundary?" Ans: Dave McCullough said, "It was done in consultation with anyone who was interested." "Engineering firm?" Ans: Dave McCullough said, "We worked on it." "Do you consider that good engineering?" Aris: Dave McCullough said, "I do. I said I did not like this. I would have paved it at district expense." page 3 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel "I was referring more to 8th Avenue." Dave McCullough said, "Maybe the City can do something about paving of an arterial." DOUG TOOMBS asked, "Why was 12th Street left out?" Ans: "Because half of it still remains in the County." OTTO PREIKSZAS said, "You are going to take soil samples and does that imply that you will put a different base under all these streets?" Ans: "Yes, if necessary." "For this 5% that you are getting, you did suggest that you will super- vise these people." Ans: "That is right,'r by Dave McCullough. CURT McKENZIE, City Engineer, explained costs of other SIDs which have been recently done in the City. The Cities of Great Falls, Billings, and Missoula were contacted, and all of the design on SIPs is done by a private engineering firm. It was stated that this was less expensive than if the City did it because the City does not have the staff or qualified people. I have heard the question asked, "Why doesn't the City Engineer do it?" The City Engineer's principle job is building inspector. The inspection fees bring in $25,000 a year to the City. I have been involved in street construction as a project engineer, but in this case I believe we have a very competent engineering firm and their fee scale is less than other firms who would not give us the quality of work. At this time the hearing was open for public comment. DOUG TOOMBS said, "I refer back to the comment that we do not have qualified people. I feel that we have some streets in this town that were put in by our people that I feel are qualified. I feel that the engineer's fee is too much. I have no qualms against HKM. I am sure they are a reputable outfit and I appreciate his coming here tonight and presenting this to us. I also feel the attorney fees are awfully high. When you add the attorney fees and engineer fees together, that is $122,482.75. Those figures were given to me by City Hall, so if you want to doubt them, check your own books. A few other things that add to the high cost per tax payer: good streets being torn up, areas being omitted, high administrative costs, mistakes in the letters that were sent out, the list that we were given was up- dated after we were given this list to go out and submit our protest to the people. I do not feel that was fair. I do not feel it was fair like it was in the Gazette today where after last Thursday I found out they had changed their way of assessing this from what we were originally told. The price per sq. ft. of a sidewalk is high. In January I paid just over $200.00 for 20' of sidewalk, curb, would figure out tonight as the same thing, I feel the prices are still outrageous, and until it is proven to me that it can not be streets in the past. (applause) and gutter. This $200.00 not counting curb and gutter. I will always think that done the way we got the One other thing that had me very perturbed is that we turned in our petition with over 70% and I get here tonight and we see where it has been cut to 36%. Even if you have thrown them-out~ you know the feeling of the people on these petitions." MARGERY LOU TOOMBS said~ "These people who really want a street, why can't a district be set up to give people a street who want a street and exclude the people who are expressing an opinion that they would like to be excluded?" Ans: "It can be done." pagc 6 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel DICK POTTER asked, "Are contingency fees the normal thing?" Ans: Mayor Herman stated, "The problem is that before we can sell the bonds, the bonding company is going to insist that we secure it in some fashion. They will insist that the City put 5% aside in the Revolving Fund to cover the costs of the individual who does not pay his taxes every year. "I do not mean the contingency that is in the $ID itself. I mean a fee that is contingent on the total cost of the project." Ans: "That is the way it is generally done all over the state." COLEN RAMSEY said, "In the Murray Heights Subdivision there is a park and it needs curb and gutter. I can not find anything in the letter which states the cost for this." Ans: Dave McCullough stated, "The cost is included in the $850,000 figure and the City will pay for it on a lineal foot basis. DONNA HOKLIN asked, "Why was the boundary changed from the original petition?" Ans: Curt McKenzie said, "We had to eliminate the land that was in the County because the County did not want to participate. The City can not work outside the City limits, and we did not want to pave just half a street." COLLEEN RAMSEY asked, "Did I understand Curt McKenzie to say that in 1977 and 1978 the square foot costs were 38¢ and 40¢? Everything has gone up. Then how are we presented with a 25¢ a square foot cost?" Ans: Curt McKenzie said, "Because it is a much larger area -- 3.8 miles. Certain costs are spread over a much larger area, thereby decreasing the cost per square foot." JIM BURROWS said, "You told Mr. Toombs that people that wanted out could get out. But last year when they brought up SID 103, all of us on the paved section of Laurmac and West llth Street signed a petition and we took it down and told you we did not want to be included, and you threw us right back in this year. COLEN RAMSEY said, "Dave McCullough mentioned that the streets they propose will last forever if properly maintained. On 5th Avenue we have never seen a maintenance truck. If this thing did go through, what guarantee do the people have that the City will maintain them so that they will last forever?" Ans: "The City would do the best they could within their means." JOHN HABERLOCK asked, "When an SID is drawn up does it all have to be in one area? In other words can you do a block here, skip a block and catch another block over here?" Ans: Mayor Herman stated, "The law requires that to create a district it must be contiguous and it has to be inside the City." "How do you get across the irrigation ditch?" Larry Herman answered, "There is a provision that says you can jump across an irrigation ditch providing both sides are in the City." JEAN SCHREINER asked, "Why is it necessary to charge the entire district for curb turns and not the person living on the corner?" Ans: Dave McCullough stated, "It does not abut the property." CONNIE (no last name) asked, "If the street in front of my house is paved now and later on if there is another SID for 6th Avenue, will I be taxed on the whole size of my lot again?" Ans: Dave McCullough says, "No. You would pay on less than the total area of your lot, because page S Minutes of the citY Council of Laurel if you have pavement on one project and not on the other, you only have the area that is in ratio to what is abutting the street." GRANT LAWVER said, "I would like to know what is the need of tearing up good streets and the re-doing them." BETTY NOVASIO asked, "Is the 25¢ a one time charge on each lot because I have two streets affecting me, beth are improved in the district?" Aris: Dave McCullough said, "The 259 applies to you once only and not on each street." OTTO PREIKSZAS said, "The engineering fee of 13.4% really does not bother me all that much because the gentleman said they would do a lot of work and if they did it, I think they would be worth their fee. But what bothers me is the attorney fee because the Billings Gazette re- cently carried articles about these SIDs. Billings is not going to use attorneys, but clerks instead. Because they are going to follow the example of Helena, Bozeman and Missoula, which is the way they have been doing it for years. They totalled up the costs in Billings and it was hundreds of thousands of dollars by using attorneys and the clerks could do it for hundreds. My address here is 816 6th Avenue~ and I got a registered letter that cost $1.60, and apparently I am not in the district. The paper said that the attorney for the district gave the names of the people who were to get these $1.60 letters to the clerks downstairs who dutifully sent them out." Ans: Mayor Herman stated, "The names came from the City offices. To answer you on the attorney fees -- in Billings they are starting to use the City Attorney. But they do not get out of the attorney fees. They are charging 2½% for legal fees that is paid to the City. It is a cost to the SID whether it is paid to the City or the attorney for the dis- trier. TOM PRILL stated, "The reaso~ I am against the SID are: First of all I know Malit Subdivision was created under some old ideas and rules. The engineer, John Daley~ who was in office at the time, supposedly engineered it and was supposed to be a qualified engineer. Now we are being told that the engineering was not adequate on it for some reason. Here we have paid our money in taxes and lot costs, gravel hauled in the area, etc. How we find out that some of it might be torn out and more gravel added and disturb the compaction that is there. Another thing that I am opposed to: I look around the City of Laurel and I see Cherry Hills which was paved about 3 years ago and ilth Street is about 10 years old and in better condition than Cherry Hill which was supposed to have been done properly. It seems that we have no guarantee that once the soil is disturbed there is no proper com- paction etc. Also comparing llth Street with 1st Avenue, I would say that my street on llth, which was said not to have been installed properly~ is in as good a condition as 1st Avenue as for chuck holes etc. is concerned. The City does not have a program to maintain the streets. They can not keep them up and there is no guarantee that they will. V Curt MeKenzie answered, "To answer the part about base course surfacing, HKM will do soil testing and evaluate the surfacing'by digging holes etc. to check on the condition of the material underneath. If it is page 6 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel bad they will have to replace it. I do not forsee removal of good adequate material. The only thing is you need enough base course to support the asphalt on top or it will break up from the stress underneath." "Is this done before we get the bids or after?" Ans: Curt McKenzie said, "A good estimate can not be made unless this is done before it goes to contract. As for maintaining the streets, it depends on how much is in the budget for this purpose." "What really disturbed me the most was the fact that the SID outer limits, since it was first proposed, was changed and the price was changed. Then to notify the people by registered letter in the mail, they do not know what it is and they have to sign for it. By signing for it, they accept the idea that this is an SID. I maintain that this is wrong to let the people know in this manner that they have an SID. The way i think it should have been done is that in the letter there should have been a place for them to sign and return it, there- fore you would know if the signature is valid and not use the registered ietter and hide what you are doing." (applause) Mayor Herman answered by saying, "Let me point out that the Council did not set those guidelines -- the State Legislature did. It is spelled out by State law that the letters have to go out by registered mail." "I think if the postal inspector got hold of this it might be illegal · "It is the way according to the government" Mayor Herman replied, every district in the State is done. DICK POTTER said, "I agree that notification should be by registered letter, but does the mere fact that you accepted this letter and signed for it constitute approval?" Ans: Mayor Herman said, "No." MERLE CHERRY stated, "I live on 5th Avenue and I have pavement, but I do not quite understand the term double chipping--double sprinkling." Ans: Dave McCullough explained, "You have a gravel street that is shaped up to crown, compacted and built just like for a hot mix surface. You give an application of prime oil, then seal oil and crushed rock, roll it, sweep it, then another coat of oil, then another coat of chips." "As information for the Council, that is not the way it was done. There was good crushed gravel used, brought to grade, shot with oil and a cold mix put on and compacted. The road is as good as the hot mix you are talking about. I can not see spending any more tax dollars for tearing it up and redoing it." DICK VANDERWYK said, "We chose the area to live in because we knew it would stand up. The street seems adequate and now we are faced with prohibitive costs and being assessed again." MR. KELLY said, "I have lived in dirt for four years. It has taken us this long for us to get our foot in the door down here, and now you bring in people who do not want it and they muscle us out. All we have is more traffic and more dirt. What are we going to do? Is the Air Pollution Board going to close off access to our homes?" JACK MARTIN stated, "I was one of the people who protested last year. My street has already been paved via form of a sprinkling district and as far as I understand most of the streets in Laurel were put in under the sprinkling district system. If you think that tearing up streets is an equitable way of doing things maybe we should form an SID for the page 7 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel whole City of Laurel and redo the whole community and spread the cost down to 20~, and maybe those people would know what it feels like to have somebody coming in constantly and trying to tear up your good street." HANK MUELLER says, "We keep talking about speinding $850,000 for this project. Is there any provision for maintaing these streets in the future?" Ans: Mayor Herman stated, "An SID does not provide for future maintenance. The money comes out of the City general fund and other areas, and hopefully there would be some available." JOHN RAMSEY stated, "I think you know by the consensus of opinion that is here tonight, those that signed the petition which was legal in our way of thinking when we brought it in, although it has been changed now again, where do we go from here?" Mayor Herman said, "If there is no more public discussion, we will go to Council debate." BETTY STREVER said, "I would like to hear why the percentage was changed on the petition protests." Ans: Mayor Herman explained, "There were Waiver of Protests on some property. For purposes of creation of the SID these Waivers of Protest are taken out in determining the percentage of protest. However, for purposes of letting the Council know that you feel the costs are too high, they have to be taken into consideration." JACK MARTIN says, "I would suggest to the Council that they consider sprinkling districts in the future. They seemed to have worked in the past, and I see no reason why people would not pay a reasonable cost to have a sprinkling district." {applause) DICK VANDERWYK said, "Are these Waivers legal if it is not stated in the contract and the buyer is not aware of it?" Ans: Mayor Herman stated, "Yes, unfortunately." Mayor Herman went on to explain waivers in more detail. KEN OLSON questioned the difference of 70% vs 36% of protests registered. Mayor Herman explained that some people were on the list who were not in the district and also others property had Waiver of Protests. COLEN RAMSEY said, "To make it clear to everyone, the list we were given by the City to go out and get the petition signed needed 149 signatures and we got 186 property owners to sign. But the list was changed and apparently we got the wrong list. DICK POTTER asked, "Can a Waiver of Protest be terminated?" Mayor Herman answered, "No." OTTO PREIKSZAS asked, "Does the total square feet in the district include parks and streets or is it just residential?" Ans: "It includes residential area and city parks but not the streets. FRED WIRTZ asked, "Why don!t you kill this project so that you can get something done this summer for people who want their street paved. We are wasting a lot of time here. There being no further public discussion the meeting was opened up to the Council for discussion. pa~e 8 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel Motion by Alderman Fink to not create SID 103, seconded by Alderman Meyers. Carried. There being no further bus--to come before the Council at this time, the meeting was adjourned~t 8~50 p.m. Approved by the Mayor and passed by the City Council of the City of Laurel, Montana, this 4th day of March, 3980. ~onald L. Hackmann, City Clerk