HomeMy WebLinkAboutCity/County Planning Board Minutes 10.05.2000MINiTTES
CITY-COUNTY PLANNING BOARD
OCTOBER 5, 2000 7:00 PM
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
Members present: Gerald Shay, Chairman
Kate Stevenson, City Rep.
Ziggy Ziegler, County Rep.
Kurt Baltrusch, County Rep.
Tom Roberhrs, County Rep.
Betty Hart, County Rep.
Laurel Haggart, City Rep.
Steve O'Neil, City Rep.
Others present: Cal Cumin, City Planner
Cheryll Lund, Secretazy
The minutes of the August 3, 2000 meeting were reviewed and approved.
Motion by Ziggy Ziegler, second by Laurel Haggart to approve the administrative
services bill for July 1, 2000 to June 30, 2001 for $2400. Motion carried.
Preliminary Plat -Saddleback Ridge Estates Subdivision
Roger Perkins of Aquaneering, Inc. presented a review of the proposed preliminary plat.
The proposed subdivision is located off of Golf Course Road. The Cove Ditch is on the
north and the High Ditch is on the south. The proposal is for 39 residential lots on
approximately 29 acres. It is presently irrigated alfalfa but is not considered prime
farmland.
The water supply will come from 2 sources. A well has already been dug and will feed
water to a reverse osmosis plant. It will then continually feed water to 4,000 gallon
cisterns on each property. The second supply will come from imgation water out of the
cove ditch to supply irrigation water for summertime use.
A walking path will go along the west and south sides. Subdivision will access off of
Golf Course Road.
Access run off has been addressed. Access to each home will not be culverted to
facilitate the run off.
Roger gave a general overview of the land geology.
Bill Maibauer spoke regazding the August 7, 2000 letter from Laurel City Planner Cal
Cumin. (see attached)
He presented a letter to Cal from Aquaneering (see attached) and addressed each item Cal
had concerns with.
Len Ventling, owner of the proposed subdivision spoke and told the Board that Roger
Perkins is, in his opinion, one of the best experts on water issues. Roger has many years
of expertise.
Mr. Ventling questioned a statement from the Laurel Golf Course's letter of October 5,
2000 regarding Fire Protection Water. The statement reads "The proposed subdivision
plan includes references to using stored water or water hazard water from the Laurel Golf
course for firefighting purposes". Mr. Ventling is not sure why that statement was made
because the subdivision is not using water from the Golf Course.
Laurel Haggart pointed out that information came from the Environmental Assessment.
Mr. Ventling went onto say that Jon Rutt from Water Specialists is the one that is
working on the water treatment plant. He is well educated in reverse osmosis.
Mr. Ventling states that all of the concerns that Cal Cumin has had in the past have been
addressed. The owners want this subdivision to be done right so sit can be a valuable
asset to the surrounding neighbors and to the City of Laurel.
Mr. Ventling cannot understand why the golf course is concerned with golf balls coming
onto the neighboring properties because there are no properties close to the greens at this
time. He does not feel that issue should come into play at the meeting tonight.
Don Herndon, Attorney, spoke as a representative of the Laurel Golf Club. He stated that
the club has not seen the amended Subdivision Improvements Agreement (SIA). They
aze not present as opponents but they do have general concerns.
The main concern is the lack of specificity in the SIA. Lack of specificity is going to
severely limit the evaluation of this application and will also prevent any real
enforcement by the government.
The golf course did meet with the proposed subdivision owners but no comfort came out
of that meeting. The golf course still has many concerns, all stated in a letter from them
(see attached).
The golf course is not only concerned with items coming out of the golf course, such as
balls and equipment, but they are concerned with people coming onto the golf course.
They would like to see a 15-foot high chain link placed around the proposed subdivision
to keep equipment and balls inside the course and to limit foot traffic. They would like
the fence to be part of a requirement for the subdivision for both phase I and II prior to
any development of the property. They feel that the fence is a reasonable and sensible
solution to the amount of people this subdivision will add to the land space.
2
Mr. Herndon questions how the board can evaluate the issues here tonight, such as water
and sewage, without getting a disinterested, independent third party analysis?
Sanitation is also a concem of the golf course. They feel it is not adequate and could
possibly cause pollution problems to the underlying aquifers.
Road access is also a concern with the future phase II of the subdivision.
A letter from Blain, Gary, Jackie, and Brian Kindsfather was received with concerns and
objections to the proposed subdivision.
Discussion by boazd:
Ziggy Ziegler wanted to know if there aze any golf courses in the United States with a
fence aoound it? He lives on Briar Wood about 300 feet from the green and he picks golf
balls out of his yazd on a continual basis.
Ziggy also stated that in his 10 yeazs of being a County Commissioner they have always
relied on the abilities of the engineers working on the projects. He does not feel that a
third disinterested party is necessary.
An unidentified party from the audience stated that he knows of two golf courses that
have fences around them.
Laurel Haggart questioned the proposed "dam" on the plat.
Roger Perkins stated that there are 2 retention ponds that are proposed.
Cal states that the dams aze not something included in the first phase.
Question on the reverse osmosis system by Tom Robertus. He thinks that 22,000 gallons
of water pumped into a pond during the winter months is an awful lazge amount of water
and he knows what salty water can do to crops and lawns.
Roger stated that they studied the issue in depth and they feel very comfortable with that
plan in regards to the land.
Steve O'Neil wondered whether there is any similar subdivision operating within the
county or state?
Roger Perkins states that the wastewater disposal is used throughout the state of Montana.
The soil is a very good way of disposing of wastewater.
The reverse osmosis system is being utilized in a couple of places, one of which is
Shepherd schools. It has operated for 2 years successfully.
Storm water retention ponds are commonly used in Billings. The issue of the water
storage tanks for fire suppression is a fairly recent requirement that has come out of the
Laurel Fire Department.
Cal reminded the boazd that water and sewer issues aze reviewed by the State Department
of Health and Environmental Sciences after the Yellowstone County Commissioners
review the subdivision. The proposed subdivision has to pass the required testing before
permits are ever issued.
As far as a disinterested third party becoming involved in an opinion, Cal feels that Roger
Perkins is a very good reference and points out that storm water runoff is not a major
issue for this particular subdivision. Cal reminds everybody that our enforcement powers
on subdivisions are limited and urges everyone to remember this during legislation time
when changes are being made to the subdivision laws.
Cal speaks regarding the secondary access road that is being required of the sub dividers.
He wonders what the purpose is for the 55-foot radius at the end.
Roger Perkins states it is just a temporary turn around should it become paved so that the
road that goes through there has a tum around for traffic.
Cal states that the emergency access road has to go all the way through.
Roger states that it is access to the water treatment plant but the adjustment can be made
to Cal's specifications.
Cal questions whether or not the board is going to require the 15-foot chain link fence
between the golf course and the subdivision. He feels it may not be an enforceable item.
He understands the desire for a fence right next to the golf course, but not in this area of
the subdivision and not fora 15-foot high fence.
Kate Stevenson has a problem with the location of the walking path. The purpose of the
walking path was to get kids safely to Golf Course Road to where the bus picks them up.
The proposed walking path, in her opinion, is not adequate or safe. She thinks it should
be located on the north and south sides and be paved.
Cal states that the board could require the easements be widened a bit to accommodate
the walkers.
Question on whether or not the DEQ looks at both the water and sewer systems.
Cal states that the DEQ requires extensive analysis for both water and sewer systems.
Question on the easement on Golf Course Road. There is an easement in place.
4
Quesfion on perk tests? It is stated that each separate lot will have to be tested and
approved for septic and water systems. If they don't pass then a home cannot be built on
the specific lot.
Question on the Comprehensive Plan. It states that this area is considered "a severe
septic system hazard".
The perk tests will determine this matter
The property owners aze responsible for putting in their own septic and water systems
after purchasing the lots. This is standazd throughout Montana.
Cal reminds the board that the SIA is a very important document with enforcement issues
and that is why the board goes over the agreement many times.
Cal recommends that on page 1, paragraph 3 the word monumentation should be taken
out.
On page 2, item #5 needs to include that Golf Course Road needs to be paved to that
access road. Also the works to curve radius needs to be added to the end of the sentence
"The road shall be improved to at a minimum a gravel 24-foot wide all season road and
meet county design standazds".
Cal recommends that the walking path on the north side of lot 2 be marked on the plat
and homeowner's be required to maintain the pathway and keep it free of weeds. This
should be written in the SIA.
Cal also recommends including the water storage tank for fire suppression in the SIA.
Cal recommends approval of the preliminary plat with the above addifions to the
Subdivisions Improvements Agreement.
Motion by Ziggy Ziegler, second by Kate Stevenson, to approve the preliminary
plat with the additions Cal suggested. Motion carried by a vote of 4-3.
The meeting was adjourned at 8:27 pm.
Respectfully submitted,
Cheryll Lund, Secretary
08/07/00 ffiON 18:21 FA% 408 245 5845 Cal Cumin
tPr76 WO KST628~796 City 4f Laurel
WATER OFC: 628-743 ] ~ ! '°'
couRZ: 6zs-r96a P.O. Box ZO ~'
FAx:SZS-zza3 Larsrel, Montana 59044
PLANZ,TIIVG
August 7, ?000 DF-1'ALtTMF'NT
Leonard & Anita Vending
3114 17th Street West
Billings, MT 59102
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Ven1h'ng:
The following are comments on your proposed Saddleback Ridge Estates Subdivision which
should be addressed before the next Laurel Planning Board meeting.
1. Subdivision Improvements Agreement (SIA):
a. TJnder Ttem 3 it is stated that a letter of credit will be provided for all
improvements not completed at the time ofiiling the final plat. The improvements listed
under Ttem 3 include street paving and the complete water system. I believe this needs to be
clarified further.
b. Under Item 3.A, items {1) and (2) should be deleted.
a Itom B refers to a homeowners association for maintaining the water
system. ThisJtomeowners association should be referred to in the SIA as'the Saddleback
Ridge Homeowners Association, Inc. as described in the bylaws submitted with the plat,
What is the relationship of the homeowners association to the Subdivision Maintenance
'llistrict referred to in Item 5 of the SIA7
d. Under Item 3.A.(4), is the proposed path provided adjacent to the
existing easement for the Cove Ditch or part ofthe existng ditch easemenUright-of-way?
~` " (]) Same thought should be given to either providing a boulevard
sidewalk when Saddleback Drive is paved or for providing a pathway that provrdes
meaningful access for subdivision restdents-including children-ta Golf Course Road.
(2) Provision of maintenance of the pathway needs to be included
in the STA,
e. Item 3.A.(6) covers two separate items that need to be ditFerentiated:
paving Saddleback Drive and the road to the north.
(1) The road to the north needs to be included in the subdivision
plat as part of it unless the County Clerk and Recorder will let you do it by providing a written
easement document to be provided with the plat.
(2) Waulddt it be much simpler to keep this road south of the Cove
Ditch and connecting to Saddleback Drive within b00 feet of the proposed temporary end (to
avoid the long cul-de-sac problem). As proposed-going north of Cove Ditcl>, two County
approved bridges that can hold 20-ton water tenders used in fire fighting will have to be bunt.
(3) The maintenance and signage of title temporary emergency
access road will have to be included in the STA.
{4) If Phase 2 of ttus development never occurs, provision must be
made for the permanent construction of this temporary access road.
E (,lnderB. WATER SERVIC>=, no mention ofthe irrigation piping
system shown on the preliminary plat is made. If this is a planned improvement to the
r~,aol
City 4f Laurel is an EEO Employer
Equal Housing Opportiuuty
08/07/00 MON 18:22 FA% 406 245 684a Cal Cuuoin ~ 002
subdivision, it has to be included in the S1A as to when constructed, size, and who will
'maintain it.
(1) Will individual cisterns on each lot be part of the<construction
of the water system installed 6y the developer?
(2) The Fire Department has indicated that it wants 30,000 gallons
available, preferably in three i 0,000 gallon storage tanks spaced as the Srst phase moves west.
The Fire Department does not want to deal whit individual water cisterns for fire fighting.
g. Ttem 7 indicates that the subdivider is responsible far all improvements
until acceptance by the County. The water system is not something the County plans to
accept. This needs to be clarified.
h, Item 9 indicates the subdivider agrees to guarantee alI improvements
far a period of one year. Again, does this include the water system?
i. ~ The County Commissioners' signature block needs to be corrected.
j. Where aze the planned improvements for the water wells and treatment
system going to be located? The plat shows a 15' waterline and well easement just above Lot
11, Block 2 and an existing well and proposed well without specific location above Lot 5,
Block 2.
2. Plat drawing:
s. The dimension of the south edge of the subdivision needs to be shown
on the plat.
b. Detail 1 shows the two water lines being separated by 24 feet in a 60-
foot RQW. Detail 2 shows a 10' separation in a 25' easement. Thrs needs to be clarified.
c. What is the purpose of-,Detai137
d_ The approximate centerline of the 30' pipeline easement appears to be
part of the planted extension of Gaff Course Road The location of this pipeline easement
must be shown on the preliminary plat, and, if part of this easement is going to be used for
public roadway, some sort of concurrence from the pipeline company must be submitted.
e. At the bottomright-hand of the subdivision a centerline for an existing
road (typical) is shown. This road way with dimensions must be shown exacil not typroally.
The same gees for the adjacent irrigation ditch, and the overhead powerline. (~s the latter
going to be placed underground?)
f. Saddleback liidge Drive is still shown on the plat, but referred to as
Saddleback Drive elsewhere. This needs to be clarified,
g. A vicinity map must be on the preliminary plat.
3. The proposed cash-in-lieu of park land must conform to the recently adopted
method for determining such value.
4. In order to proceed with the second phase of this project, the developer nwst
prove he access to the road on the west side of the Golf Course (27th Avenue West); this will
require a certified title report- Provisions for construction and maintaoatice of this off-situ
road to serve the subdivision must be addressed.
5, A. traffic accessiblity study will need to accompany the second phase filing of
this project, and it must include the first phase.
6. Tn the bylaws submitted for the homeowners' association, it states that solid
waste pick-up and disposal will be done by the association (Article V), Section 1.4.}. This
needs clar~caGon.
08/07/00 MON 16:22 FA% 408 245 5843 Cal Cumin
7. 1'he surface water runoff concerns of the Golf Course must be addressed.
Sin ly,
Cal Cumin, ATCP
Planning ]7irector
cc: Aquaneering, 1555 Sage Circ3e, Laurel, .Montana 5944
County Public Works bepartment
Laurel City Council
Board of County Commissioners
Sam Picard
Laurel Fire bepartment
~,. ,.
3
X003
/IQ ~lONEEROIVQ
LAUREL. MONTANA 59044
September 27, 2000 (406J szs-zzoz
Mr. Cal Cumin, AICP
Planning Director
City of Laurel
P.O. Box 10
Laurel, Montana 59044
RE: Saddleback Ridge Estates Subdivision comment letter
Dear Mr. Cumin,
This letter is in response to your comment letter dated August 7, 2000. My responses
follow the order of your comments. They are:
Subdivision Improvements Agreement (SIA)
a. Item 3 now states that only roads, traffic devices, storm drainage, and
monumentation will be covered in the letter of credit.
b. Items 3.A (1) and (2) have been deleted.
c. The Saddleback Ridge Homeowners Association, Inc. (Homeowners Association)
has been referenced in the SIA in Item 3.A.(1). We do not anticipate the
formation of a Maintenance District. Any reference to a Maintenance District has
been removed tram the revised SIA.
d. The walking path has been relocated along the south property line of Block 1.
There will be a path along the west edge of Block 1 and at the path easement in
the middle of Block 1. We have provided two entrances to the path. [t is our
understanding that no other walking easements or boulevard sidewalk was
necessary. The pathway maintenance will be the responsibility of the
Homeowners Association, see 3.A.(2).
e. The emergency road has been relocated and is contiguous with the subdivision as
shown in the preliminary plat. The SIA does make a provision for permanent
construction if there are no additional subdivision filings. The maintenance of the
emergency road will be the responsibility of the Homeowners Association.
f The irrigation system is shown on the plat. It will be located in the 15-foot utility
easement along the south side of lots in Block 1 and the north side of lots in Block
2.
(1) The developer will not install the individual cisterns.
(2) 'the first of three 10,000 gallon or larger buried water storage tanks will be
located in the 30-foot wide easement near the middle of Block 2. The
proposed ]ovation of the tank is shown. The other two tanks will be
located in the second phase of the subdivision. If the second phase does
not occur, then the remaining water storage volume will be installed at the
west end of this subdivision in cooperation with the Laurel Fire
ENGINEERS HELPING TO PUT WATER TO YOUR BEST USE
Department. A dry fire hydrant maybe installed in the water storage pond
located west of the first filing. The water in this pond may also be used by
the fire department if they desire.
g. This has been clarified to exclude the potable water and irrigation system.
h. This has been clarified. The Subdivider guarantees the roads, traffic devices,
signage, and monumentation for 1 year from Final acceptance by the County
Public Works Department.
i. County Commissioners' signature block has been corrected.
j. A water treatment building and specific well locations are shown on the
preliminary plat.
2. Plan Drawing
a. Dimension is shown
b. Detail 1 is deleted.
c. Detail 3 is deleted.
d. See attached letter
e. The road, irrigation ditch and overhead power are shown as they exist. The
overhead power will be removed and all power lines will be placed underground
within the subdivision.
£ Road name is corrected.
g. Vicinity map is on the preliminary plat.
3. The cash-in-lieu of parkland will conform to the recently adopted method.
4. A copy of the certified title report for access on the west side or the Golf Course is
attached. It states there is a road easement on the section line.
5. A traffic study is planned for the second phase of this subdivision. The study will include
phase 1.
6. The Homeowners Association, bylaws have been changed such that the solid waste pick-
up and disposal will be through individual. contracts with the lot owner.
7. A storm water analysis is„ ached. This has been presented to the Golf Course for their
review.
Sincerely,
William H. Maibauer
Consulting Engineer
AQUONEERING
Enclosures (2)
cc: Sam Picard
Len Ventling
Laurel, MT 59044 (406) 6~8-2060
October 5, 2000
TO: YELLOWSTONE COUNTY PLANNING BOARD
Re: Proposed Saddleback Ridge Subdivision, l" filing
The following are concerns of the Laurel Golf Club which should be taken into consideration
as a part of the review process and formulation of the subdivision improvement agreement, of the
proposed Saddleback Ridge Estates Subdivision, 1" filing:
Safety and Security,
The Proposed subdivision will result in a dense population along the north property
line of the Laurel Golf Course which presents foreseeable safety and security risks.
Golf balls in flight, water hazzards, water storage ponds and maintenance machinery
provide safety risks to the residents of the proposed subdivision and liability
exposure to the Laurel Golf Club. The residents of the proposed subdivision and
their guests and invitees will significantly increase security risks to the physical plant,
machinery and equipment of the Laurel Golf Course. These risks require the
construction of at least a 15 foot fence along the property line where the proposed
subdivision and the golf course property interface. This fence should be sufficient
to stop golf balls and prevent ingress and egress across the property line. The
construction and perpetual maintenance of this fence for the entire length of both
Phase I and II should be included in the subdivision requirements and paid by the
subdividers. Representatives ofthe Laurel Golf Club have met with the subdividers
to explain the need for the security fence constructed for the full length of both Phase
I and II prior to any development.
2. Drainaee•
The proposed subdivision will result in the construction of numerous dwellings with
driveways and paved streets on ground significantly higher than the golf course. The
runoff from roofs, driveways, streets and yards will flow to the Laurel Golf Course
property unless the drainage is controlled and directed elsewhere.
~OP~
The subdivision proposal is too vague and lacking in engineering specifications to
be technically evaluated or included in the subdivision requirements. The drainage
design should be viewed by a disinterested engineer for safety and effectiveness. The
plans and specifications should have sufficient detail to enable effective enforcement.
Representatives ofthe Laurel Golf Club and the subdividers have met and discussed
drainage issues. The subdividers have not presented an adequate drainage plan.
3. Fire Protection Water:
The proposed subdivision plan includes references to using stored water or water
haz7ard water from the Laurel Golf course for fire fighting purposes. The subdivides
have no legal right to use the water. The Laurel Golf Club objects to any
consideration of using its water to support the application for subdivision approval.
4. Sanitation•
The environmental and sanitation disclosures by the subdividers appeazs to be self
serving and inadequate. The sanitation plan and supporting data should be
sufficiently detailed to permit engineering and health review by disinterested experts
and subsequently enforced if approved for the subdivision. Geologic testing by
independent experts may be required to determine whether the proposed system will
function adequately without risk to underlying aquifers. There are specific concerns
as to whether a water storage pond which will be a part of the system will be
sufficient to prevent leakage into the underlying strata or overflow during storms.
5. Road Access:
The Laurel Golf Club objects to any consideration ofthe proposed subdivisionbased
upon the expectation that Twenty-Seventh Avenue will be extended north of the'/.
section line of Section 7 where it presently ends. No easement exists for that
proposed extension. Further is appears that Yellowstone County has no interest in
extending Twenty-Seventh Avenue even if the easement existed. The extension of
this road would present, to varying degrees, the safety and security issues discussed
above.
LAUREL GOLF CLUB
By:
BOB ADKINS, PRESIDENT
August 24, 2000
Dear Planning Board Members:
We are writing this letter to the Planning Board Members with our
concerns about the proposed SADDLEBACK RIDGE ESTATES
SUBDIVISION.
We do not want a road going in on the west boundary, which would
Extend twenty-seventh Ave. west to the North, on a road that has been
abandoned. If the road is accessed it will run close to a home, a Golf course
green, cause trees to be removed and a wetland to be disturbed. It will lead
to problems with trespassing, litter and people driving to fast on a bad road.
Mr. Maibauer stated at the August 3, Meeting that he felt everything is
negotiable in regards to this matter. We want to make it clear that this is
NOT NF..OT AB . ~. with us and we DO NOT want the road to be
accessed.
We are concerned about the many affect's this will have on the Cove
and other ditches in the area. People will be playing, throwing garbage and
stealing water out of the ditch. There is always the possibility of the ditch
breaking and flooding the area below the ditch. Homes with basements could
also be flooded by seapage from the ditch. Ditch water that is planned on
being used will not be available year around, the headgates can't be left open
all the time, because other people need water dowm stream to. The
headgates can also be shut down because water for lawns is considerd a
luxury.
Trying to take care of most of the water use with two wells is a
concern. What happens if the weIls dry up, as so many of them have this
year. How will it affect the water table, is it going to cause it to be lowered,
or raised to much? Irrigating lawns with reverse osmosis can get to be very
expensive. If water is going to be stored in ponds they will have to be lined
or storage tanks will have to be built. Otherwise the water will soak into the
ground and come up on the golf course. Is there going to be enough water
available for fire protection?
What is going to happen to the water from the septic tank field drains,
could it eventually make the well water unusable? Is this area even suitable
for septic tanks?
How will this subdivision affect our Police and Fire Departments,
taxes, Schools, and roads. The roads west of Laurel are already narrow and
busy and can't handle much more traffic without some work. Taxes will
probably go up to work on roads, birild schools and for other expenses
brought on by increased population,
We feel the city of Laurel has not grown out this far yet, it might be out
this far in ten plus years. We realize there are plans for homes, but they have
not been built yet. There is plenty of land between Eighth Avenue and Golf
Course road, that is used for agriculture, with no Plans of being Subdivided.
What affects will this have on the Wildlife and scenery in the area. This is
one of the last places around Laurel that has open land with beautiful scenery.
There are many other uses for this land such as, agriculture, a park, and a
place to hunt or go horse back riding. We feel it would be easier on everyone
if this was put on hold untill it could be put on city services.
We plan on being a good neighbor while protecting our own interests.
We are upset with the way things were handled concerning the abandoned
road. We would have liked them to have talked to us about the road when
the subdivision plans were in their early stages. At the June meeting, dealing
with the zone change, it was stated the traffic would enter and leave the
subdivision on Golf Course Road. They stated this was going to be the only
-road used. Then at the :Tuly meeting, after the zone change passed, the
discussion about the preliminary plat began. They then changed their story
and said they were going to try and re-activate the abandoned road. We do
not like the way they are treating their neighbors, when dealing with the
abandoned road, because the road only benefits them and causes their
neighbors problems.
We would like to thank the board for taking time to listen to our
concerns. We hope the board thinks about the many points that we have
brought up and takes a close look at the plans for SADDLE BACK RIDGE
ESTATES SUBDIVISION.
Sincerely yours,
B1ain,Gary, Jackie, and Brian
Kindsfather
'~I ~
G~ ~ ~