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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCity Council Minutes 08.20.1985 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel August 20, 1985 A regular meeting of the City.Council of the City of Laurel, Montana, was held in the Council Chambers and called to order by Mayor Albert Ehrlick at 7:00 p.m., on August 20, 1985. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Lonnie Kellogg · Marvin Carter Mel Krug Chuck Dickerson Donald Meyers Rob Harris Bob Gauthier COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Bill Brennan INVOCATION: Invocation given by Reverend Spear. MINUTES: Motion by Alderman Mey. ers to approve the minutes of the regular meeting of August 6 and the special meetings of August 7 and 12, 1985, as presented, seconded by Alderman Harris. Carried. CORRESPONDENCE: Received a~letter from the Montana League of Cities and Towns ~egarding full funding of Revenue Sharing for the next fiscal year (through September 30, 1986). Received a letter from Montana League of Cities and Towns regarding, the 1985 Annual Convention to be held in Missoula on September 18, 19 and 20. Motion by Alderman Harris to send Don Backmann, City Clerk, as the voting delegate from the City of Laurel, seconded by Alderman Meyers. Motion carried 7-0. Received a letter from FBS Insurance, Hoiness LaBar Inc., regarding Worker's Comp coverage for Work Release Program. Received the purchase order and a copy of the agreement with the State Highway Department for street sweeping from July 1, 1985, through June 30, 1986, in the amount of $2,550.00. Received a letter from the State of Montana Department of Health and Environmental Sciences regarding Hazardous Waste Regulations. Received the June Activity Report from the Air Pollution Control Board. Received a letter from Volk Construction dated August 5, 1985, regarding the methane compressors and gas lines. Received another letter from Volk Construction dated August 8, 1985, requesting a meeting with representatives from the City and EPA to present some claims relative to the wastewater treatment plant construction. The Mayor announced that a special Council meeting has been set for 5:00 p.m., Thursday, August 22nd and urged all to attend. EPA will not be in attendance because they feel there may be a conflict. Received a copy of the final Environmental Impact Statement for the proposed Laurel to Bridger iO0-KV transmission project. This statement will be on file in the City Clerk's office. Received a letter from.the County Commissioners regarding a meeting on Friday, August 23, at 9:00 a.m., to discuss the County Law Enforcement proposals. CITY CLERK AND CITY TREASURER'S FINANCIAL STATEMEN.T FOR THE MONTH OF JULY, 1985, was presented for approval. . Motion by Alderman Gauthier to approve the City Clerk and City Treasurer's financial statement for the month of July, seconded by Alderman Dickerson. Motion carried 7-0. At this time the Mayor asked if there was any objection from the Council to move the comments from the audience next on the agenda. There were none. COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE: L. D. Collins, Yellowstone County Air Pollution Control Board, presented a copy of a draft letter to the County Commissioners from the Air Pollution Control Board. This is in reference to regulations009 "Control and Omission of Odors." No person shall cause suffer or shall allow any omissions of grease vapors or odors beyond their property line in such a manner to create a public nuisance. The Board is asking that the County Attorney take legal action against Asphalt Supply in the form of a public nuisance complaint and a request for an injunction requiring Asphalt Supply to stop operations until such time as a mutually agreeable solution can be made. The nuisance is quite.obvious. They have loaded on the back side opposite the mist eliminator that was put in. They load and unload their trucks on the back side. They block the road and they bust the sidewalks. The Board is asking, as a County Air Pollution Control Board, that the County Commissioners have Asphalt Supply closed. They Mope that would be in conjunction with the City of Laurel and that they would be in agreement to work fast and swift to see this come about. Other than that it's up to the Council. Joe Bradley asked if the letter had been mailed yet. Mr. Collins stated that it page 2 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel has not but will be tomorrow as soon as all signatures are gathered from the Board~ Mr. Collins stated that they hope the City of Laurel would use their nuisance ordinance in staying or pulling the license of Asphalt Supply. I've been in- formed that it takes a court hearing to do that but I think for all reasons it should be done as quickly as possible. At the last meeting when Asphalt Supply was present they said they get their materials from Cenex Refinery. The Air Pollution Board called Cenex, and they said they haven't used them for 1½ years because the chemicals that they require are so volatile that Cene× doesn't make them. So they have been trucking their materiai in (naptha and cutter) for over 1½ years. Marvin Carter asked what about their asphalt? L. D. Collins - I think they buy their asphalt from Cenex. Marvin Carter - and that was the statement that was made? L. D. Collins - I think he said they buy all their materials from Cenex. They do not buy ail their materials from Cenex. They truck in the most volatile explosive material that they have. According to the records, as well as we can find, the naptha at 116 degrees has a flash point of 100 degrees which is just l±ke a charge of dynamite going off~ And according to the engineer, every 20 degrees you heat this~beyond 216~degrees it drops 8 degrees on the flash point. So if you heat it at an additional 100 degrees it would be right down where a lit cigaret~ across the room would.ignite it...I think it's a real bomb and it's just looking for a.place to go off. ~It's probably up to the County, the City, and anyone else that wants to get involved in it to see if they can get it stopped or moved from this residential area. It's just too close and just too big a hazard. Don Meyers stated that the license has.not been issued yet for this year. It is being held pending the outcome of our study of the complaint. Joe Bradley stated that the first committee meeting was held 3 or 4 weeks ago, and at that meeting it was decided to pursue some information. There was a second meeting held last Friday which Joe was unable to attend. At this point the investigation is continuing. Joe has not heard back on the information he requested from the State and the Federal EPA. Joe stated that no action can be taken in regards to the business license because our ordinances are clear that they have to be notified, and we have to have a hearing. This is what L. D. meant when he said a court hearing. It's not a court hearing but a hearing before the Council. We present evidence and they have a chance to rebut it and then the Council gets to make a decision. But they do have to be notified before we take action on it. Carol Wood Saturday night we had such a smell over there about midnight. We had Collins 6ome over. He went over there and they changed the filter on it, and it took a good hour for the air on the ouside to filter out; but the smell was inside for about 3 hours. We threatened to go get a motel room and send Asphalt Supply the bill. We are being driven out of our homes. And all we've got to do is have time? I know it takes time but how much more time are they going to need because we can't take it. They are pushing us up against the wall. Rob Harris - What additional information do we need, Joe? Joe Bradley - I was looking into the EPA regulations. You have all seen that letter we got from Asphalt Supply. It mentions that they have 2 other plants in two other states without problems. I would like to check into that and see how they are running and where they are. I'm not too sure about the process they use and I would like to cheek with the EPA offices and see if they know more about these processes. The letter was kinda sketchy. At this time we can just take the audience comments under advisement until we can have a hearing. L. D. Collins - The Air Pollution Control Board has talked to the head owner and manager in the plant in Denver and there is good reason they don't have any com- plaints. The main reason they don't have complaints is because the one in Denver is located in the middle of a refinery and.I don't think you could smell it if you went there. At the time the license was granted for Asphalt Supply the man sat here and said they didn't know of any trouble. Well we knew of trouble at that moment because we had a petition with 165 names on it against the license when it was granted. The people have been fighting this license since the day it was issued. I went to the plant in Billings which is 2½ blocks from the Sheraton Hotel and you could have a picnic there. That's the difference in the plants. You could tear the whole Billings plant down and put it on a truck and have it moved in 3 days because of the way their plant is set up. Their plant is an emulsifying plant. It's a little different plant than we have here. The mist eliminator that is on Asphalt Supply over here now, the engineers said when they hooked it up they didn't think it was going to work because it wasn't designed to do what it's doing. It's not designed to convert oil back to a liquid. But it's the only thing that they have and I'm quite sure they knew it wasn't going page 3 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel to work. They have tried and we have tried and it isn't working. I don't know what else they are going to do. Either close down the operation or move the houses for 2 miles around the plant. Marvin Carter ~ Albert, has your oommittee discussed the possibility of working with the County and asking Asphalt Supply to possibly move to Moss Main and ask about tax incentive programs that would allow some tax relief so that they could move that plant? Albert Ehrlick - No. they haven't. Marvin Carter I wonder if this is something your committee should consider. Joe Bradley - Marvin, if this letter is going to the County Attorney tomorrow I would like to talk to them about it. Rob Harris ~ I would like to put a time frame on this. Joe Bradley - I estimated when our committee first met that 2t could take 2 or 3 months and it's been i month. I'll estimate another month to gather all of our information. Chuck Dickerson - How much longer are they going to be allowed to operate without a license? Joe Bradley - We have to hold the hearing before we can revoke or suspend their license. We have to be ready for the hearing. Marvin Carter - Could we set October l, 1985, for the target date? We could notify Asphalt Supply of the hearing and that their license is in jeopardy and may be suspended. If we don't have all the information we can notify Asphalt Supply. Motion by Alderman Meyers to set the date for October l, 1985, for the public hearing on Asphalt Supply. If there's any change we will notify them the week before, seconded by Alderman Harris. Motion carried 6-1 with Alderman Kellogg voting, "NO." PUBLIC HEARING - WATER RATE FOR ALL COMMERCIAL STANDPIPE OWNERS AND OPERATORS: This being a continuation of the public hearing of June 18, 1985, the Mayor asked for the proponents (those people in favor of the rate increase). PhiI Curry - My understanding is that a replaced water line comes out of tax money, right? Lonnie Kellogg - It comes strictly out of water revenue. Phil Curry - That water line down there is going to have to be replaced, and the 2" line that was put on it is just causing it to deteriorate that much faster. They are going to have to raise the rates all over town to get caught up on the deteriorating water lines. That is an undersized line for a 2" line to be taming off from it. You are going to have to look at that when you consider that rate increase. Darryl Fox I am another commercial water hauler. It has been said that I haul water illegally, which I don't. I would like to set a few things straight for you. I'm tested by the State and my tanks are certified. Another thing has been said that I'm such a small hauler that it doesn't make any difference and that I only haul on Wednesday. This isn't true either. We went back and checked, and I hauled 9 days out of the last 19 so I haul just about every day anyhow. So as far as standpipes go the reason I haven't put up a standpipe in the past was be- cause I talked to Larry Peterson shortly after he got here and he said that the City runs the standpipe and I couldn't put one up because I wouldn't be licensed. I couldn't get a City license to run a standpipe. I have talked to some of the , fellows that have hauled out of here for years and years and they said that years ago Schessler Ready Mix tried to sell water from~their standpipe and the City told them to stop it. That was illegal too so that was the reason I didn't do it. As far as costs go I would be like any other business. You have to take the cost of your water plus your labor and pass it on to your consumer. As far as I am con- cerned the cost is irrelevant because if it costs you $5 a load you just charge that much more to make it up. As far as I am.concerned the people getting hurt by paying tripple the commercial or residential rate across the street are the people that can't afford to have their water hauled and have to haul with small tanks. They are paying 3 times the rate that residents are paying plus all their added expense of gas. It looks to me like that would be unfair to them. I can recover my costs hauling commercially. I never have understood why the standpipe over here is 3 times the residential cost. I would be interested to see if it pays for itself. Basically the reason why I'm here is to see if we can put up standpipes legally and be licensed and pay the residential rate. I would like to go on record as being able to do it with the Council's permission. Albert Ehrlick - You want a standpipe also? Darryl Fox - Yes~ before I couldn't. Albert Ehrlick - First of all this standpipe down there competes with our stand page MinUtes of the City Council of Laurel pipe. We lose that revenue. That's money we lose. Second of all, like I say, Darryl tried to get a standpipe. You talk about discriminatory. What is more discriminatory than to turn one fellow down and then let the other fellow have it. Not only that, in Billings you have to have an 8" water line to tie on with a standpipe. This fellow is tied on to a ~" water line, feilas. And if you don't think that's something ask Phil Curry. Everytime we have had a water break down there it was 8 slit a foot long. It's not a normal break. It's from shutting the water off with a bang. We used to have the same problem over here. Next, Sisks property is out of the City limits. I remember Marvin Carter eom- plaining about these people being out of the City limits to put that water line in there. He not only went from a 3/~" water line, he went to a 2" water line. The City doesn,t collect any tax revenue off of that. Then this fellow comes and says he!s all for the City of Laurel. He brings his accountant up here. Where do you have your office? Accountant - In Billings, but I live right here in town. Albert Ehrlick - Yes, but you don't pay no City license. Accountant - I don't have to pay a City license in Billings either. Albert Ehrlick - So this is my reason for being against it. The City is going to have to go in there and replace that water line. And fellas, don't think for one minute that water line ain't going to be costly. You remember in the past where we just replaced 1 or 2 blocks of water line, and that's going to cost the City money. Rob Harris - One comment I would like to make on the water line. If it's in poor repair it's going to happen regardless if there's a standpipe down there or not. Albert Ehrlick - Oh, no! Because that puts an extra strain on that pipe. Rob Harris - Never the less it's going to happen at some point. Albert Ehrlick - Who is going to pay to replace that water line? I'm not opposed to it being in there. What I'm saying is it's going to cost the City to replace that water line somewhere down the line. It's in bad shape and it's going to be costly. Mel Krug - What's the difference in revenue in what's sold down there and what's sold across the street? Albert Ehrlick - They figure the City is losing $190.00 a month. A little over $2,000 a year. Marvin Carter - When he pays I understood that it was just like the business com- munity. Dave Powers and everybody else who has a business on Main Street. He was paying that rate. OK, you can say we lose $190. How many washers did we take out of this machine across the street that didn't give us one damn dime? Albert Ehrlick - That's been corrected. We're still gaining revenue off of this irregardless. Marvin Carter - When we get 1~8 washers? Albert Ehrlick - We didn't get that many washers. Marvin Carter I think if we ask Ernie Davis there was a count. Ernie Davis There was $62.00 and some cents. Rob Harris - That's 168 washers. Who repairs that ~ it's broken? Albert Ehrlick ? At this time I'm going to call on Jim. He called Billings and let him tell you what he found out. You don't have to take my word for it, fellas. Jim Flisrand - I talked to the Billings water department, Assistan% Public Works Director. In Billings they have one charge for everyone. The charge there is $6.40 from 0 to 200 units ours is 57~ but they still have one charge for every- one concerned. The Public Works Department~ at least the Assistant Director, is somewhat opposed to the private standpipe people and they are considering a policy Of the City taking over all standpipes and change them to coin operated only. He recommended the size of the pipe is critical. Depending on the usage of the water in any certain area would be the determining factor. Generally 8" would be the logical size for a water line. Whether or not a standpipe is on the line would not affect the line to any degree. It's the type of valve they have on their system. If they have a quick shutting valve and you have a 2" line and you shut it off now, it's going to cause a severe water hammer. If the pipe is in poor condition it will split. Guessing, that's probably what happened this spring. I also talked to the PSC. In their opinion, there is absolutely no problem with the City adjusting their rate to whatever they feel is necessary. They indicated that as long as you had a stan.dpipe in operation in the past years that is a good average and that would be one procedure in following to adjust all standpipes to that same rate. It really is the Council's decision on which way to go. pa e S Minutes of the City Council of Laurel Opponents: Harold Sisk - I am the "all" standpipe owner/operator. I used this standpipe down here for a while and I was running so much money through it because it was broke down the biggest part of one winter. I just can't believe the amount of money I'd have to run through it now. My argument is: The standpipe is in and I know the City approved it. I just go on my right to have the same rate as the other business people. Dick Potter, Accountant - I presented some figures to you last time and I can understand why you have to have a higher rate out here. You have to maintain the standpipe for more users, which puts more wear on it. You have the coin operated system that has to be maintained on it. You undoubtedly have more moving parts or whatever has to be done there to make sure the coin operated parts works properly. So I can understand an increased rate for the standpipe out here. It will pay for that. Again, we presented some numbers at the last meeting and those numbers haven't changed. Like Harold said,he,sgoing out to Billings and West Billings and carries between here and there (rural areas} and collects that revenue through those larger sales and he brings that business back to Laurel. Now $2300 may or may not be a lot of money. Compared to all the revenue raised for water fees in this town I.can't hardly think it's more than a drop in the bucket. This $2B00 to Harold, at this point, is a critical number. So I can see, in all fairness, him paying the residential rate. If the City is having a problem with the water.rates in this town, maybe everyone should be raised just a iittle. But to raise one operator I think would be a little bit discriminatory. Also, if you're going to raise that rate for one commercial operator, why doesn't every commercial business in this town receive a commen- surate rate increase? If the sole criteria is that he's using more water and putting more strain on the pipes what about the Cenex Refinery and the other businesses in town that use a lot of.water ~ more than the residential do - shouldn't they have a rate increase also to compensate or to set up a reserve for potential repairs to the water mains also? Maybe I don't understand all the facts here, but like we presented, these amounts are critical to Harold where I don't feel.they are that critical to.the City of Laurel. The rate increase just wouldn't make that much difference, and yet he pays the same rate as any other residential operator. Albert Ehrlick - Cenex runs most of their own water. They have low pressure water. They don't use all that much City water. The line they are coming off of is a line that can handle it. Most of the business places don!t have that big of a meter and the City is still going to have to maintain that meter irregard- less. Harold Sisk - But there are some City users that have a 2" line, right? Albert Ehrlick - Yes, there are some. Harold Sisk - I've gone down to the water plant~- when you were broke down out here - and they have a big diesel engine down there that the guy told me they have to crank up especially when Cenex has problems. Ernie Davis That is Cenex's pump used for low pressure water. Harold Sisk I see one other one man operation here tonight. Lonnie, you aren't much bigger than a one man operation. You have a few other employees but you support one family off of that. Can you stand a $2300 water raise? Lonnie Kellogg - No, sir. Harold Sisk - You would have to lock up. Clark Johnson - We are all concerned about the condition of that water line down there and I guess I as.the owner and Harold as the operator are just as concerned as everyone else. I was concerned about it before we ever asked the City to put it in. When we were talking to the engineer and the peopie in charge here about it we asked if the line could handle it. It's a 4" line. Is that big enough to run a 2" line off of? I was told, ~"YES." I said what's the condition of it. I was told not to worry about it,~that's the City's problem. I am supposed to worry about the line from there on in, if the City approves putting it in. And they approved ~me putting it in. Albert Ehrlick - Who told you that? Clark Johnson - Dave Michael and Mr. Peterson. Albert Ehrlick - There's your answer. He's had everything loused up all the time. Clark Johnson - Those are the people I was told to go to. Albert Ehrlick - But if this Council approves the standpipe, that's fine. Dave Powers - I think a quantity user should not be charged any more than myself or the car washes or any other commercial user. I think Darryl should be allowed to put in a standpipe if he has a place to put it. Albert Ehrlick - I think he should, too. But he was turned down less than a year of this one being put in. page 6 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel Harold Sisk - Where was he going in with it? AIbert Ehrlick - Valley Drive. Darryl Fox - I talked to BN about leasing some land. I've got a letter if you would like to see it. Albert Ehrlick - I think if we are going to go this route he should be entitled to the same thing. This is the reason I'm opposed to it. Unless this Council will give him that option. Dave Powers - If.Harold has a problem with too quick a shutting valve down there and it creates water hammering, he should be made to change that valve to a slow reacting ~alve. Being involved with the City in the past, I certainly know what a water hammer does. Albert Ehrlick - They repaired 3 water leaks down there last winter and every one was slits. Don Meyers - The first leak that was on that line down there leaked a long time before they put the standpipe down there. Albert Ehrlick - Then they Should have been told t~e line was no good. Motion by Alderman Carter that the public hearing be closed, seconded by Alderman Kellogg. Motion oarried 7-0. Council Comments: Lonnie Kellogg - I would like to make a few eomments. This did go back to the Public Utilities Committee and.wehashed it over. A couple.of points were made by Mr. Potter and Mr. Sisk about business people that turn around arid sell water. I sell water. Terry Fink and Dave.Gauslow sell water to people who wash their ears. They pay the same rate as Harold. Are we going to raise their rates because they are selling water? Albert Ehrlick - They are not hauling it all over the country. Lonnie Kellogg , Whether or noL they are hauling it all over the country or not, it leaves the water pipe and it makes no difference. The City gets the revenue onoe it leaves the meter. We charge more for this pipe over here because we maintain it. We pay the men to go in over there and fix it. We have spent over the last 3 years several hundred dollars to maintain it. $o all of these people in turn sell water and I don't know why we should single one man out. I'm not against a rate increase for standpipe users, but we're going to do it for every- one in my opinion. Right now we have one and I don't see any problem with him buying the water that he's got and turning around and selling it. As far as Mr. Fox having been turned down, I've been here for 4 years. If it was it didn't come £rom this Council or the Utilities Committee. There may have been other ¢ircumstanees. It may have come from the engineer. I have no know- ledge of that whatsoever. Don Meyers - Before Lonnie was on the.Utilities Committee I was Chairman of the Utilities Committee and no one ever came to me requesting a standpipe. I feel the same way. If you check you'ii~find the car washes in this town use more water than he's hauling from that standpipe and then we have the sewer to oontend with after that. This water is.gone. Onoe it's loaded on the truck the City doesn't have to process the water again. I feel if Darryl wants a standpipe it's no different than a.¢ar wash. Are we going to make them stop car washes because they are using large quantities of water? Maybe we ought to shut down the car washes or double or triple their rate. You say that water goes out of town. Well there are a lot of people from out of town that come here to wash their cars. Albert Ehrlick - That's true. Don Meyers - I just feel we are being very disoriminatory also. Chuck Dickerson - I feel if we do allow this standpipe to stay in operation or allow other standpipes to open up that we take into consideration what Jim said and have something to say about the type of valve that is placed on these stand- pipes to eliminate the hammering effect that it has to possibly cut down on any unnecessary damage to the pipes involved. Don. Meyers - Mr. Sisk, has the City ever approached you and told you what kind of valve to put on? Harold Sisk - No Don Meyers - Right now you have a curb stop on there, right? Quarter turn? Clark Johnson - Yes. We also have an air shock chamber we put on to absorb some of the shock in turning it off. I realize that there is still an increase in pressure when that valve is shut off. Chuck Dickerson - Would you have any problems if it was proven that this valve you have could possibly oause problems? Harold $isk - I know the valve will cause problems. page 7 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel Chuck Dickerson - Would you have any problem with replacing that valve to be a satisfactory type valve? Clark Johnson - No. When I can get a plumber I'il ohange it. Mel Krug - Jim, how much difference would a steel gate valve with a hand wheel that you turn shut make? Jim Flisrand - Considerable Mel Krug - Would it shut down the hammering? Jim Flisrand - Totally M~i Krug ~ In other words it would ease the pressure baok to the water system a little at a time rather than all at once. Harold Sisk - My concern has always been the meter, not the pipe. Motion by Alderman Kellog~ to leave the standpipe rate as it is and to review it on a yearly basis, seconded by Alderman Meyers. Motion carried 6-1 with Alderman Gauthier voting, "NO." Mel Krug - I would like to let Darryl Fox.p~csueputting in a standpipe if it's costing so much across the way. If we could take some users away from it, then the expense would be less. Don Meyers - All they have to do is Come and ask. It's just another business in Laurel. Darryl Fox - Well, I asked. Darryl Fox was referred to the Public Utilities Committee for September 10, 1985. Don Meyers - Personally, I would just as soon see that standpipe shut off over there and we get plum out of the water business. When you actually see the cost of it,~it's not that great a deal. I would rather see someone else come in and buy that standpipe from us and pay us for the location. We'll lease them the land and we'll be plum out of the business. This matter referred to ~he Utilities Committee. ~UBLIC HEARING . DAVID LOEWEN ANNEXATION REQUEST: This being the time and place advertised~ a public hearing was held regarding' the question of annexation. Proponents: Mr. David Loewen Opponents: none Motion by Alderman Carter to close the public hearing, seoonded by Alderman Kellogg. Motion carried 7-0. ORDINANCE OF ANNEXATION NO. B19 (first reading) EXTENDING THE BOUNDARIES OF THE CITY OF LAUREL, MONTANA, TO INCLUDE A TRACT OF LAND LOCATED IN gE¼ SECTION 5, T2S, R24E, PMM, YELLOWSTONE COUNTY, MONTANA. Motion. by Alderman Ca~ter that Ordinance No. 819 (as amended to include the new lot number) be passed and adopted, seconded by Alderman Meyers. Upon taking a roll call vote a~ aldermen ~resen~ voted, "YES." Motion oarried 7-0. GEORGE FIGGINS - RECONSIDERATION OF ZONE CHANGE: In view of the fact that the whole Council isn't here, Mr. Figgins asks for a postponement until the next meeting on September 3, 1985. JAN ~TINGLEY ~ DRAINS AT NEW STORE: Jan Stingley and Bill Enright appeared before the Council with an alternative to the French Drain. The problem with the area is they are turning it from semi-permeable into "totally impervious" area. They are going to have 1.4 aores of asphalt; 98% of the ~water that will fall in this area is going to run off the property. What we have proposed, through a series of holding areas, is to retard any runoff.that we are proposing to put into the existing storm drain to no more than the runoff that comes off the property right now t~e way it sits. They will build a structure that has a thin plate or sharp edge orifioe and that will limit the water flow to B15 gals a minute at a 2~-hr. 2 yr. storm. They will be able to store 57,000 gals. of water and release it at 315 gals a min. Release time is 93 min. to drain the parking lot if we get that kind of storm. What they are proposing is to connect the storm drain and the roof drain to the storm drain that runs down Main Street now and limit the discharge to no more than what comes off the property now. In their proposal they have also designed o~rb and gutter on 5th and on Main, and they have a design for down 6th around the store. ~ey would like permission to connect to the existing storm drain at Main and 5th Avenue an~ to allow them to discharge no more water into the.storm drain than would run.off the property if it was connected to the storm drain today. The City will have full oontrol over this structure. In addition, they are building a s~diment and grease and oil separator to keep the dirt and oil and grease distillates, to the extent physically possible, out of the storm drain. Jim Flisrand - The current policy of the City is not to allow this type of system. We don't ~ve adequate plans in the office to determine what the existing storm page 8 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel sewer system is. It might be 24'!. Basically we don't receive much water off that property into our storm sewer inlets at that intersection. However, his quantities are correct what we would receive. The amount is not tremendously significant. I think our system could handle it. I can not make a recommenda- tion tonight because I don't know what we have underneath the ground. If it's a 12" then I'd be a little scared, but I think it's a 24". Generally speaking it's a good design and I think it would work but I would not give it absolute recommendation tonight. Bill Enright - We have contacted the Highway Department and.that storm drain was put in in 1926. The inlets are ail connected to the drain with an 8" pipe. Jim Flisrand - The old existing line.ran down Main Street: 24" starting at 5th Avenue and Main Street and ran parallel to the new storm sewer we have now. Jan Stingley - The very first thing the contractor will do is to acquire the necessary permits from the City and State and dig it up to see what's there. Don Meyers - What happens when you expose it and £ind it's a 12" line? Bill Enright - We'll have a big problem. We have some alternative plans but I hope we won't have to use them. If it's too small, we'll have to hold everything and then pump it after the line is empty. Andy Loebe - When Lockrem put in the new storm drain on Main, he stopped it at 3rd Avenue and West Main and completely shut it off there. Where it goes under the railroad tracks he tied in there and converted it into the main storm sewer drain on Colorado. ~From 3rd Avenue to Colorado Avenue from Pennsylvania the existing storm drains on the main right now, he cut them all off. If you drain down main you'll see low spots, all those drains now are tied into the new storm drain. The existing storm drain that was in there, excluding the drains that are no longer draining into it, I myself feel that the storm system in there now will carry this water because it doesn't have anything f~om those avenues drain- ing into the old storm drain. The old storm drain goes all the way down main and ends up on the east end of town in the ditch and goes down under the overpass. Motion by Alderman Carter to give Jan Stingley tentative approval to tie into the storm drain at 5~h Avenue and Main Street, seconded by Alderman Meyers. Motion carried 7-0. Jim Flisrand - Are we going to change our policy? If the storm sewer is avail- able for anyone to tie into? Generally our policy has been not to allow this. Phil Curry stated he thinks it's an 15" line. DENNIS JOHNSTON - BIG SKY HAUL AWAY - PROPOSAL FOR TRANSFER STATION TO REPLACE OUR LANDFILL: Dennis was not present. AWARD BIDS ON STREET SWEEPER AND BACKHOE: STREET SWEEPER: Mel Krug reported that the Street & Alley Committee reviewed the bids on the street sweeper_and unanimously voted to reject the bid because it was approximately $10,000 over bid. They will look into re-bidding some time after the first of the year as there would be a 2--3 mo. waiting period by the time it would be ordered. Motion by Alderman Krug to reject all the bids for the street sweeper, seconded by Alderman Meyers. Motion carried, 7-0. BACKHOE: Lonnie Kellogg reported that the Public Utilities Committee studied the bids and recommended to not accept Ford's bid as it did not meet specs. They further recommended accepting Western Equipment's bid on the Case backhoe. It was approximately $841 higher. Attached to the committee report is a letter from Ernie Davis listing the reasons, why the committee felt that the Case would be a better buy than the JCB0 Probably 2 of the biggest things to come up that impressed the committee was the availability of parts (the time element) and, according to the Green Guide, the re-sale value of the JCB vs Case on a year per year basis is lower on the JCB. In.the long run the Case will be worth more money. The committee voted unanimously to accept this. Motion by Alderman Kellogg to award the backhoe bid to Western Equipment on a 3 yr. lease for $50,747.16, seconded by Alderman Harris. Discussion: Jerry Gibson, Modern Machinery - Our company quoted the JCB and my partner here, Dennis Kaercher, may want to add something if I forget. When we submitted the bid and after we came to the Utilities meeting, we felt there were a couple of items we would like to point out. This idea on re-sale, it's been the history of the City of Laurel to economize and they have done a good job to run their equipment way out to 20 yrs beyond the life of the Green Guide and equipment is perpetually run to destruction. By the time it's ever traded off it doesn't matter what the brand is. I.go back to the Trojan loader, when the Case loader was bought. I feel the re-sale value, unless the City plans to sell within the next 4 or 5 yrs or at least 10 yrs, the re-sale value is absolutely worthless in making a determination. It just doesn't add up. It just doesn't fit with the mode of operation for the City of Laurel. I can't think of any piece of equip- page 9 Minutes of the City COuncil of Laurel ment that falls in that line right now. The Case loader that you bought in 1981 you saved some $600 on and you took low bid. It has about 2000 hrs on it now~ Its age is such that its useful life of 10,000 hrs would be in 20 yrs. I just don't think this is a legitimate reason for throwing out JCB~ The other item, parts availability, there was some argument and some discussion as to what companies had.trouble getting parts. I would like to point out that JCB has been in this area and handled by Tractor & Equipment, the local Cater- pillar dealer, for some time. Now Caterpillar is coming out with their own backhoe loader. The dealership was made available and so Modern Machinery picked it up. There was some concern about customers having to pay freight during warranty. Now it seems we can say something and somebody if their mind is made up they just ignore that and don't believe it. I want to quote what is in our guarantee.parts availability dated Aug. 6th which was the last day that infor- mation could be submitted. "48 hr part guarantee. Ask your deater~for details. JCB offers its dealer a guarantee that parts for machines on this program wiI1 be supplied within 48 hrs or the parts and freight will be paid by JCB." Now at the same time during the utilities meeting we agreed to supply a~:.machine if your machine is down. What the Public Utilities Committee should have done when they got that offer they should have said: Hey, the best thing for the City of Laurel is to buy the machine we think we ~an't get parts for;because your machine could be broken down, you don't have parts, it,s not being used, there's no hours going on it, so you get the parts free and you get a loaner. So you just use our machine. You don't even use your machine. The real logic is accept the machine where you get an offer like we made during the utilities meeting. Accept the machine where you think the parts won't be available. Now let's just go one step further. The JCB people require, and we're just thc new distributor, and we know because it's very fresh, you don't get a machine in your inventory until you have parts. I want to point out Modern Machinery in Billings will have parts for this machine. Modern Machinery in Gillette, Wyo., Will have parts for this machiHe. Modern Machinery in Missoula will have parts. Modern Machinery will have.parts for this machine in Spokane, Washington. That's bid dealership and that's a lot of territory. We have a big responsibility to JCB and we commit it. And I think those 2 reasons given by the Utilities Com- mittee are invalid for rejecting the low and I maintain the responsible bid by Modern Machinery Co. Now in addition to that, during the Utilities meeting there was certain documentation submitted at that time and used and re~erred to. The next morning Dennis and~I began to discuss it and we thought there was one letter that appeared to be rather strange that it would appear in a letter form and we decided we needed a ~opy of that letter. We thought that letter had been submitted, possibly, after the date of August 6th. We came to Laurel. We went to see Ernie. Sat across Ernie's desk and said: Ernie the JCB representative would like to have a copy of that letter from the Case dealer here in Billings on that warranty because he was unaware that Case had a warranty that read verbatum, practically, to the JCB. We feel that after the fact that letter was submitted bringing the warranty of the Case machine up to the standards of JCB. Now Ernie agreed. He said: Sure. Opened his file, pulled it out. But what Dennis and I were interested in was just the date, nothing eise. We knew what it said because it was talked about. The letter was turned around in a legible point and put right in front of us. We both looked down and it said August 1Bth. Ernie quickly grabbed that letter up and said: I'll make you a copy. He did. He returned. The date wasn't on the letter. The date was NOT on the letter. We think - Dennis and I have both prepared a sworn letter to that effect - and we consulted with our corporate attorney in Missoula - we think we're right. We think the City has accepted a document that was written and presented after the 6th, essentially to upgrade the Case bid. Not to make it better than the JCB but make it equal to, and I think that the City should throw the Case bid out. ~ow I am just going to sit and watch the outoome of this. We have a personal interest because we have people within our o~ganization who live in the City of Laurel. We have consulted with them, and we want to know what happens to their livelihoods and their homes. They live here in the City. We are going to watch it closely. We're going to see how it goes. We are going to collect documents. We don't have all of Lonnie's minutes. They weren't done and prepared. I don't know where they were but they weren't available until very late this afternoon, I guess. I think there has been some other documentation that's moved around that we don't have copies of, but we strongIy recommend that the members of the Council (1) reject the recommendation of the Public Utilities Committee. Accept the bid, as you did in 1981 for the Case loader that now you're very happy with, but I know for a fa~t cause I was here, that nobody wanted to buy it. They wanted to buy others but you bought the low bid, and you saved the City people of Laurel $600. I think you should reject the Public Utilities Committee recommendation and think you should also, for the record, throw the Case bid out. Thank you very much for your time. Mayor Anything else in the way of discussion? Ernie, go ahead. page l0 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel Ernie~ Davis - Yes, I'd like to respond to his statements. First: when he came to the office he asked me if we discussed it here at the Public Utilities Committee last Tuesday night - the recommendation of which hoe to take. We went over the bids. Somebody brought up the subject of warranty. His man, Allan Engelstad I believe his name is, District Manager for JCB. He stood right here in this room and told us the warranty that JCB puts on theirs don't even stand up to the damn thing. It says one year on the whole maohine, and then he stands.~there and says we can't warranty all parts on the machine. We can not warranty hoses, wipers and other such miscellaneous items. So if he wants to talk warranty it !~'-_~ worth the paper it's wrote on, I guess. Nowt if he wants to get slanderous I've got -- I won't get slanderous. I won't say that. I documented lots of information from lots of JCB owners. I'll be glad to bring it before the committee. As far as on the letter that was submitted with the bid from Case: they came to the office Wednesday morning, oh about 9 o'clock. They sat down. I was at my desk. Dennis was over here. Jerry was over there. Dennis was on this side. Dennis asked me if he could get a copy of the letter for JCB that Western had changed their standard warranty. I said: I'll ask. And I went to Don Hackmann, told Don what I wanted. Don said everything in the bids is public information. Make them a copy. I walked back to my desk. I took this letter out of the envelope. I did not lay it on the desk cause I got straight up to go make the copy. In fact I am not even sure I.sat down. I went to the copy machine. I made a copy of this letter. I went back and presented it to Dennis. He said: Didn't you receive this yesterday? I said, no. In.fact a notation that I've~noted that I made when Dave and I sat down and went over the bids, and I wish Dave was here because Dave and I went over the bids on the 7th of August, the day after the last Council meeting. We went over the sweeper bids. We went over all of the backhoe bids to make sure they all met specs and we briefly talked about the warranty for Case at that time. The only thing that Case hag done t:ochange their standard warranty - they've got a standard 2 yr. warranty, i yr on the base machine. Bob Schreiner, at the Public Utilities meeting said we do not exclude hoses, wipers, and other miscel- laneous items. He said we have a full 2 yr warranty on the power train. This is identieal throughout the machinery field. John Deere does it, Case does it, JCB does it, Ford does it. The only difference in the warranty of JCB states a 3rd yr warranty on structures and fabrications. This means if the boom happens to break or a weld on the boom breaks or some welding on the machine comes loose, they'll send you a welder out here and re-weld it back for you. The odds are astronomical that this eould happen within 3 yrs, but it's nice to have if it does. Case bid and quote me if I'm wrong, tell me if I'm wrong, a month or so ago, against the JCB, at that time they didn't know what JCB's warranty was. I had trouble just finding some JCBs in this part of the country. They decided to make their warranty - not up to JCB's but better than JCB's. They would offer the 3rd yr on all structural welds except damage caused by abuse. This is the letter I made their copy from. They evidently went straight to the newspaper with the story. After Dennis asked me he said didn't you receive this yesterday? which would have been last Tuesday. I said, "No, I didn't." We discussed our City operator taking their machine and running it over to the shop--which he did. Now he wants to talk about his machine - how good it is. Fine. I want to talk. First I called Park County. I was aceused by the JCB salesman that I received my mis-information through other dealerships. I found out about Park County,s JCB because I went to Livingston and Bozeman to look at street sweepers over a month ago. In Park County they own a 3C3 sold to Park County in 1982 as being new. In truth and A1 Engelstad, their District Manager, stood right here last week and said a 3C3 is a 1979 model. And they have had several breakdowns with this. They've had a very hard time getting parts. They've had to pay freight on warranty parts. I talked with Wally Friend, he!s the.equipment operator over there. He said they waited 4 weeks for a hydraulic pump which tore up in 15 hrs. on tractor. The bucket on the tractor totally collapsed with less than 100 hrs. JCB refused to replace it. They blamed it on the operator. They've got a 21 yr. old Case over there that he ran for i1 yrs prior to getting on this JCB. It's still got the bucket on it from day #1. Some parts they waited for came out of and were postmarked Wurster, England. Big Ditch Company - I called Roy Zahn, Superintendent. He said he has had a very hard time getting some parts, a long time waiting on some of these. His tractor is 2 yrs old and he has had many many broken hydraulic hoses. They have not been covered under warranty. The State of Montana and, oh, Big Ditch Company - it was Bill Brennan who told me to call them. It was not another dealer. The State of Montana. A1 Engelstad says it's got to say something. The State bought 3 of them last year. It took me a while to find out who to get in touch with. I talked with Dick Rogers. He's in charge of equipment and purchasing. The State purchased 3 new 1550 tractors in August, 1984. All 3 have had break- downs. They waited over 2 weeks for a starter. It came from Wurster, England. They also had a bucket oompletely collapse. They wouldn't warranty it. These tractors were purchased through ABSO Equipment Co. in Great Falls. Mr. Engelstad page ll Minutes of the City CoUncil of Laurel tried to put the blame back on the dealership of T & E stating they did not promote or try to sell their product. Here's another dealer that sells them. Mr. Rogers says another complaint he has on JCB is that it uses all special captive lubricants that can only be purchased through JC8. For those of you who do not know what special captive lubricants are, it is whale oil. He stated the prices were unbelievably excessively high. Another complaint they have is all hydraulic hoses, nuts and bolts are Wentworth threads. Nothing made in the U.S. interchanges with these. His advice to us: he said if there is any way possible and I quote, "Buy anything but a JCB." I called T & E concerning the parts JCB made them stock. I was not told what I wanted to know. They claim they have very few problems getting them from Maryland. White Marsh, Maryland, is the depot in the U.S. for parts coming in from England. We went over the part on the Green Guide. Since Iast Tuesday night we sat down and I did some more w0~k on looking over the specifications. There are 3 items that should exclude the JCB from the bid based on they do not meet the specs. Paragraph 1, Section 5: I asked for a (I don't guess the copy machine erased that). Transmission shall be an automatic power shift with a minimum of 3 forward and B reverse gears. They do not have an automatic transmission. They've got a 4 speed standard transmission with clutch. It does not have overcenter transport position roading stability. That was paragraph 4, Section 1. In paragraph 5, Section 2, I asked cab must be heated air pressurized fan forced hot air towards windows for visibility. They've got one vent in the back and one in the front and blows up by the pedal. There is not another 17008 JCB tractor in the State of Montana. I can't find one in Wyoming. I can't find one in North Dakota, and I heard there was possibly one in Idaho. This is what we bid on, so you know how many parts they're going to stock. I have been accused by the salespeople for JCB for taking recommendations on who to call about JCBs from other.dealers. This is not true. I told you where I got my information, how I obtained it. When I asked A1 Engelstad to give me anyone who owned a fairly new model JCB that was satisfied, he told me he would call me the next day with names and information. Ne has never called me back. He said Harley Noven, and Dennis recommended to call Harley. He's got a JCB. I called Harley Hoven, Hoven Construction Co. He lives right here. Saturday, I talked with his boy, I guess it's his son, Mike. .He told me their business has owned 2 backhoes: 1 JCB, a BC model, and 1 Case, a 580 model. These tractors are basically the same size tractors. As their business started to slow down they decided to keep the tractor that did them the better job. They now own a Case. They sold the JCB. He said he would recommend JCB for 2 reasons: (1) the extend-a-hoe and (2) the slide hoe in the back. Neither of these options did we bid or did we need on our hoe, so we didn't bid it. He did not cut JCB down. He said he made his choice as to which hoe did the better job. I would like to remind the Council it was Modern Machinery that sold us the street sweeper that we now own, that this man (Jerry Gibson) says we keep until e~erything wears completely out and then we never trade it in. These are the same people - Dennis, right there, came to our shop and said, I don't want your street sweeper. I won't take a tradein. ~We can't get a damn thing for something that he sold to us 5 years ago for $42,000 and I've got the invoice on it somewhere. They don't stock parts for the sweeper we bought from them. When I order parts I order through Michael Todd because I can get them within 7 days. Four years ago he is talking about the Hough that they bid against Western's Case that the City took Western's Case instead of their Hough. I called Modern Machinery yesterday. I asked for the parts department. I asked them, I said, do you stock parts. And I looked up this in the minutes from the meeting where the front end loader was bought. I said do you stock parts for a Hough Model H60E front end loader? This is what they bid to the City 4 years ago. He said, no we do not but I can get them from the factory. He asked what do you need? How about a simple starter? You don't even stock a starter? No we don't but I can get.it from the factory. So he's talking about how well they stock parts and how much they are going to stock. Why shouid they stock parts for a tractor when they don't have another one in Montana? I can't find one closer than Colorado. On this Green Guide~ comparing lists, A1 Engelstad sat up here the other night. Ne said our machines are bigger and better than the Case 680H which Case bid. He said it digs deeper, has got.more power. So then when I asked him does he recognize the Green Guide as far as price re-sale values. If you don't know what the Green Guide is it's like a Blue Book on automobiles. Retail/whslesale, and he said yes that he did, why? I said, oh because I've got a couple pages out of it. A 1982 model, comparing, because that was the first year Case came out with the H model. They went from a G in 1981 to an H in 1982. Going against their 1700 hoe in 1982, their selling value of a 1700 was $50,000. Average resale today is $29,000. In 1982 Case sold their hoe for $62,500, a difference of $12,500. It's got an average resale value today of $43,000 - $14,000 more than the same year of a JCB. 1983 average resale of a 1700 JCB was $35,000 - an 83 Case is $51,000. There's a $16,000 difference there. I maintain that we do not always keep everything until it wears out completely. I hope we get away from some of the antique equipment that we've got now; that we can maintain better equipment than what we have; but I don't see the benefits to the City to save $851 between the prices to take a tractor that I can't get parts for. page 12 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel Joe Bradley ~ Ernie, are you saying then that the City would like the option of trading it in or selling it off? Whether we choose to do it or not? Ern±e Davis - Well, when we started talking about buying a tractor now, we talked the option of trading in the John Deere. Everybody was under the impression that we'd get rid of it, that we were a one tractor City. And I said, no. We wanted to keep it because there was a possib£1ity we could use it for a backup. Even though they have a warranty. With Case if you're down 48 hrs because of parts that was the tractor's fault, they give you a loaner hoe. JCB does the same. John Deere does the same. I don't know about Ford. But Dave and I spent a good bit of time looking into warranties, guarantees, part availability and everything on these things prior to bidding. If I'd wanted to - I felt I didn't know that much about JCB. i Lonnie was wrong when he said it was unanimous the other night. I didn't vote. It wasn't beoause I didn't tell him I abstained, but I did not vote on the motion to reject JCB and take the Case. I just didn't vote. Because he asked me to make a recommendation for or against. I told him I couldn't. Joe Bradley - Ernie, I was just asking about what they are saying - that the City policy is to run the machine into the ground, that they are worthless. Whether we choose to do that or not, would you like the option of trading it in in a few years and a higher value machine would mean more then? Ernie Davis - Yes Joe Bradley - Do you think? Is it your opinion then that if we go for the higher machine now $840 difference, it will end up costing us less over the next few years? Ernie Davis - OK Let's go back to the original bids on these mad~nes. Don Meyers - Before doing that~ Ernie, I would like to ask a question on the JCB. On your backhoe you have machined bushings~ You have no bushings on your arm stuff on your backhoe. It's built right into the machine. Jerry Gibson - There is a bushing in there. D~n Meyers - There is bushing in there? Jerry Gibson - I can show you. Don Meyers - That just came out this year then on this machine because I looked at one today and it had no - 1700B because it was a new series machine. Jerry Gibson- There's a lot of old 1700s. We said there was no new 1700Bs. I'd like to have the floor because Mayor Just a minute, let Ernie finish his first. Joe Bradley - Are you saying now? Is it just your opinion that although the JCB might be lower priced now it will end up costing us more money whether in cash outlay or time off the job or whatever? Is that what you're saying? Ernie Davis - Well~ you can't predict that. You could take any dealer could sell you any piece of machinery. You could take it out tomorrow and blow an engine~ Anything could happen to it. Joe Bradley - Based on what you've learned. Ernie Davis ~ Ben Deines has got a 680H here in town. He's had it for 3 yrs, 4 yrs -- B yrs, I guess. He bought it in 80 huh? Mayor Bought it about 5 yrs ago. Bob Schreiner - I thin~ it was a 680E. Ernie Davis - It's a 680 anyway - the same size as what we're bidding. He's had virtually no trouble. Everybody can replace a hose now and then and when you've got a difference in weather that can flex 150© difference between winter and summer you're going to have a deterioration on rubber. But he says he's used it year round. He doesn't work it near as hard in winter as he does in summer, but his recommendation was very high. Truthfully I've yet to find somebody with a JCB that would say go buy one. Jim Ftisrand - I'd like to answer Joe's question relating to the Green sheets. We can assume the Case would be - would have a larger resale. Ernie Davis - The Case is worth considerably more right now. That's what I was trying to get at. The base price on their machine. The Budget/Finance Committee after looking into it, we knew we were looking at over $40,000. They said we have to go with a 3 yr lease. When we wrote the specs and I showed Bob Gauthier what I did, I asked (the second paragraph on the price sheet) I said price of backhoe FOB Laurel, Montana., on a 3 yr municipal lease to be financed by manufacturer. Their base cost on their machine was $42,700. This is JCB, but their interest is 10% and that brings their cost up to $49,896. The Case right now he's selling to us for $47,289 and this is about $30,000 below suggested retail because cities, towns, counties and states are entitled and get a discount straight through the factory that Joe Blow wandering in doesn't get. But right there shows a difference of almost $5000. But the interest rate on Case's municipal interest rate lease was 7.5% so there's a difference of over $4000 in interest fees that brings their page 13 Minutes of the City CoUncil of Laurel cost on a 3 ye lease to $50,747. Joe Bradley - That's where you get the $841 difference? :Ernie Davis It's $851. Joe Bradley - So the JCB is $851 cheaper right now spread out over B years. Is that right? Ernie Davis Yes Joe Bradley But you seem to be telling me that replacing hoses and things that are warranteed and the time down and.breakdowns that you've learned from other people that it could end up Costing us more than the Case would over a similar period of time. Is that right? Ernie Davis Yes doe Bradley.- ~'d like to address a little bit about this allegation of a bid impropriety. If the Council believes there was a bid impropriety in that we reeeived information late, I'd like to see the Council reject all bids and start over. Then I think that the bidding procedure is tainted. But we've got the head of Western Equipment, Mr. Mike G. Matz, here tonight who can tell you whether or not he submitted them and I asked him to come tonight. Also he's got that letter that the gentlemen from Modern Machinery are referring to. He's got the original where he can.show you whether there's a date on it or not. $o if you'd like to ask him to see. I think we'd like to have that now. Mike Mat~ - I have the.original. It's marked "file copy" because we have a new secretary and she inadvertently stamped this one "file copy." You see we mailed the photo. I'm saying that's a mistake on our part. Joe Bradley - Was there ever a date on this? Mike Matz - There was never a date on it. Joe Bradley - Did you submit it in your sealed bid at the time, at the time you first bid the backhoe? Mike Matz - Yes Joe Bradley ~ Will you leave this? Mike Matz - Yes Joe Bradley - Now the gentlemen from Modern Machinery say that they filled out sworn statements. Would you be willing to do that if we asked yo~? Mike Matz - Yes~ I would. Dennis Kaercher - I'm Dennis Kaercher with Modern Machinery and to answer a few of the things that Ernie was talking about. First though, the reason we don't have parts for the Hough loader is because we are not an International dealer. There's another dealer here in Billings, the West Star Equipment, so why should we stoek parts? We can get parts through another dealer to support the product we sold to previous Customers, I did tell Ernie that as far as Modern Machinery was concerned the sweeper wasn't worth very much because we are going into the fall and we would have to sit on that sweeper all winter. We did not submit a bid but I told him in the springtime you could probably get $10,000 out of the sweeper. Right now sitting through the winter months we just couldn't consider it. I'd like to sign our copy of the letter and submit it to your attorney. I'll get this signed and give it to Bob and compare the two. (The letter the City received was a copy Joe Bradley made of the letter signed by Dennis Kaercher. He took the letter with the original signature on it.) Jim Flisrand - One other thing supposedly they did not meet the specs on 3 separate cases. That alone is enough to not accept their bid. Dennis Kaercher Does Case have a power shift automatic transmission? Bob Schreiner Yes Ernie Davis In response to him saying he did not bid it Tuesday night 2 wks ago, the night the Council met he came here with his bid in his hand. I met him south of town. They were still working on a fire hydrant. That was my first day back from vacation and he asked me about the fact that when I wrote the specs I bid it a truck mounted vacuum street sweeper. They are handling FMC. They do not make a truck mounted vacuum street sweeper and he asked me why I asked for it. I said because of the fact that you can take the sweeper off in 10 yrs if it wears out. You put another sweeper on it for $30,000 or $40,000. You don't have to buy another truck. You've got a truck there that would cost you $20,000 or $25,000. He said he would probably not su.bmit his bid but that is the reason he didn't. Because he could not meet specs. Jerry Gibson - I'd like to say just one more word. In fact as I was talking with our corporate attorney this afternoon he said you know just casually observe, he denied during discussion, see if you think Ernie is at all motivated to change the date on that document or accepting the document. .It is very very clear that he is very motivated. He wants to buy a Case and at any cost. page i4Minutes of the City Council of Laurel Lonnie Kellogg - I!d like to point out that Ernie doesn't buy it. The Council does and the Mayor. And the only difference between that and their usuai warranty is #B. Isn't that right? Jerry Gibson - Yes Ernie Davis The only differenoe is the 3rd item: Structural Welds and Fabrica- tion. Mike Matz -~The only reason we bid that is that we ran into that in a bid for the City of Great Falls. Dennis Kaercher ~ This afternoon I thought I'd do some research on Case warrantees, so I called a couple of the other dealers around the territory. First of all I called Wilson Equipment in Wyoming and asked what the Case warranty was on the Case. He said 1 yr on the complete machine. I said, do you have an extended warranty? He said, yes. We have an extended B yr warranty on the power trans- mission. I said, do you ha~e any structural warrantees? He said nothing after the 1st yr. He said the dealer can give that as_an option. Then I thought I'd check in Montana with the Case dealer in Missoula. I asked him the.same question. He said theirs is a 1 yr.warranty on the power train and they have an optional or a 1 yr on the complete machine and an.optional 3 yr warranty on the power trans- mission. We were just curious why they wrote that warranty on their power train. Joe Bradley - So I think we should find out if they don't meet the specs what's the sense of arguing the warranty or anything else? If they can't meet the specs that were mailed out, that would invalid their bid regardless. Mayor That's what Jim is saying. Dennis Kaercher - Tuesday night it wasn't brought up anything about the specs. Mayor I'd like to call for the question please. Now is there anything else among t e--~ouncil? Motion was made and seconded to accept the bid from Western Equip- ment. Motion carried unanimously. JOE BRADLEY - CITY COURT CLERK: I'd like authorization to advertise for a City Court Clerk that was approved in the budget which I think is final now and I'd like to begin advertising the position. Don Meyers - Well how big a position are we going to put out? 2 hrs a day 15 hrs a week Motion by Alderman Kellogg to gi~e Joe Bradley permission to advertise for help, se'cond by Alderm~n Ca'rter. Motion carried 7-0. Joe Bradley - I expect that Larry Herman, the Judge, and I would be the immediate supervisors. Mayor I would say so. Yes, because you have to work with them. REVENUE SHARING CASH FLOW PROJECTION: Don prepared a cash flow projection to give the Council and Department Heads an idea as to when they can spend their Revenue Sharing money. Motion by Alderman Gauthier to use this as a guideline, second by Alderman Carter. Carried 7-'0. ORDINANCE NO. 817 (second reading) ADDING SECTION 10.34, Motion by Alderman Carter second by Alderman Krug. Upon "YES." Motion carried 7-0. SNOWMOBILES, TO THE LAUREL MUNICIPAL CODE. to pass and adopt Ordinance No. 817, second reading, taking a roll call vote all aldermen present voted, ORDINANCE NO. 818 (second reading) AMENDING SECTION 9..20;065i ADVERTISEMENTS ON PUBLIC PROPERTY TO BE REMOVED WITHIN 48 HOURS -- EXCEPTIONS, TO THE LAUREL MUNICIPAL CODE. Motion by Alderman Meyers to pass and adopt Ordinance No. 818, second reading, second by Alderman Dickerson. Upon taking a roll call vote~ all aldermen present voted, "YES" except Alderman Kellogg voted, "NO." Motion carried 6-1. ORDINANCE NO. 820 (f±rst reading) AMENDING SECTION 17.28.020 TO CLARIFY AND AMEND MINIMUM SETBACK REQUIREMENTS FROM CITY RIGHT OF WAY. Motion by Alderman Dickerson to pass and adopt Ordinance No. 820, first reading, second by Alderman Meyers. Upon taking a roll call vote, all aldermen present voted, "YES." Motion carried 7-0. RESOLUTION NO. 2165 BEING A RESOLUTION TRANSFERRING CERTAIN FUNDS OF THE CITY OF LAUREL; MONTANA. Motion by Alderman Kellog~ to pass and adopt Resolution No. 2165, second by Alderman Dickerson. Motion carried 7-0. page 15 Minutes of the City Council of Laurel COMMITTEE REPORTS: --Budget/Finance Committee minutes of August 6, 1985, were presented for review. Motion by Alderman Gauthier to enter the Budget/Finance Committee minutes of August 6, 1985, into the record, second by Alderman Dickerson. Carried 7-0. --Street & Alley Committee minutes of August 8~ 1985, were presented for review. Motion by. Alderman Krug to pay for curb and gutter on East Maryland Lane in the amount of $686..70, second by Alderman Kellogg. Carried 7-0. Motion by Alderman Krug to enter the Street & Alley Committee minutes of August 8, 1985~ into ~he.~ecord, second by Alderman Meyers. Carried 7-0. --City-County Planning Board minutes were presented for review. Motion by Alderman Carter to enter the City-County Planning Board minutes of August 8, 1985, int~ the record, second by Alderman Krug. Carried 7-0. --Board of Adjustmen~ minutes were presented for review. Motion by Alderman Kellogg to enter the Board of Adjustment minutes of August 13, 1985, into the record, second by Alderman Carter. Carried 7-0. --Public Utilit.i.es. Commi.t.tee m~nutes of August 13, 1985, were presented for review. Motion .by Alderman Keltog~ to grant Ken Hageman an adjustment on his bill because the wate~ had been' requested to be shut off, but to deny an adjustment for Otto Preikszas because there was no request to be shut off, second by Alderman Harris. Carried 7-0. Motion by Alderman Kellog~ to enter the Public Utilities Committee minutes of August 13, 1985, into the record, second by Alderman Krug. Carried 7-0. --Garbage Committee minutes of August 19, 1985, were presented for review. Discussion of County Qarbage.Distrlct. Motion by .~l.derman .Meyers to decrease Kwiki Car Wash to $1b per month on garbage ¢ollecti0n, second bY Alderman ~rug. Carried 7-0. Motion by Alderman Meyers to purchase 100 300-gal. garbage containers, second by Alderman Dickerson. Carried 7-0. Motion by Alderman Meyers to enter the Garbage Committee minutes of August I9, 1985, into the reco~d~ second by Alderman Krug. Carried 7-0. COMMENTS FROM ALDERMEN AND DEPARTMENT HEADS: Chuck Dickerson stated he has been getting phone calls regarding the DeFrance Motel. The sign out front and the advertising in the newspapers. He would like to know if this is legal and see if there is anything going on. The sign tends to leave a lot to the imagination. Mike Atkinson stated the curtains are not always closed and the films can be seen from outdoors. Chuck Dickerson All I'm asking is for the City to look into it. Earl Linger announced that an aerial fire truck will be on display August 22, 1985. This is a 95' platform truck. This will be Thursday night at the Junior High. The Grant Committee and Council are invited to observe a smoke i s mulati~n. Chuck Dickerson says Mr. Figgins would like to address the Council at their next meeting on September Brd. I will be unable to attend but would like to go on record as being against the zone change. Clerk to notify Mr. Figgins that there won't be a full Council on September 3, 1985. Joe Bradley announced that the grievance meeting against the City regarding the dYspatchers will be held on October 10, 1985, at 9:30 am. Mayor reappointed Don Cahill to the Board of Adjustment. Motion b.y Alderman MeYers to confirm the Mayor's.appointment of Don Cahill to the Board of Adjust~eh't', second by Alderman Harris. Carried 7-0. M.ayor asked permission to leave the State. Motion by Alderman Carter to give the Mayor permission to leave the State, second by Alderman Harris. Carried 7-0. Treasurer asked permission to leave the State. Motion by Alderman Harris to give the City Treasurer permission to leave the State, second by Alderman Kellogg. Carried 7-0. There being no further business to come before the Council at this time, the meeting was adjourned at 9:50 p.m. Sh~ Herman, Deputy City Clerk Approved by the Mayor and passed by the City Council of the City of Laurel, Montana, this 3rd day of September, 1985.