HomeMy WebLinkAboutCommittee of the Whole Minutes 05.18.1994
MINUTES
SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE
MAY 18, 1994 6:00 P.M.
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman - Chuck Rodgers
Ron Marshall Gay Easton
Albert Ehrlick John Minch
Donna Kilpatrick Bob Graham
OTHERS PRESENT: V. Joe Leckie Vicki Metzger
Don Hackmann
Richard Larsen, consultant, stated this meeting has been designed as a
work session for the council regarding what direction they want to
take in the engineering and maintenance departments. He identified
and reviewed the points that the council had previously instructed him
on regarding what happens to the city now.
Richard outlined what the council will try to do tonight and he would
like to set a goal. The council needs to give him direction as far as
their vision for the city and where they would like to see the city
go. He will also ask the council where they see possible solutions to
the problems and why. After this he will give a synopsis of what he
has observed through talking with individuals in the interviews and
getting out and walking around. Richard said that everyone was very
candid through the interviews and a lot of information came out of
them.
At the outset, Richard stated he does not feel the city needs a city
manager and this can be identified at the front end of things.
Bob Graham started off by commenting that he feels our primary problem
in Laurel right now is our water system because of the Clear Water Act
and so forth. He feels the city has a very good fire department and
the police department is highly adequate. From the recreational
aspect, the swimming pool is a concern.
Albert Ehrlick commented that he feels the garbage fund is a problem
and he feels other cities are having the same problems.
Ron Marshall said infrastructure is a concern because the water and
sewer lines have been in the ground a long time and eventually they
are going to have to be replaced, whether we like it or not. We need
a way to finance it, either through a SID or something of this nature.
Comments were made that of the two, water is a bigger concern because
it is one we are being forced into by the government.
In regard to street maintenance, John Minch said we started a program,
but there again it is a matter of money and just. how far it will go.
John said the streets are in tough shape and they have been bypassed
and done in different ways. We can all see this just by driving
around Laurel.
Regarding the streets, Albert said the only thing we use on streets is
state gas tax money. No additional funds are budgeted for them.
Issues in Billings have brought to light the concern over sidewalks,
curbs and gutters and Bob said, as he is out walking, he has been
noticing that the sidewalks in front of many residential homes are in
bad shape.
Sidewalks are the property owners responsibility and many can't afford
to replace them. There would be a lot of complaints if they are told
by the city that they have to replace or fix the sidewalk.
Donna Kilpatrick identified finances as a problem of the city. We
have so many restrictions placed on us such as I-105 and we are just
barely getting by. We have been doing absolutely the bare necessities
Page 2, Council of the Whole minutes, May 18, 1994
and now we have major financial burdens being placed on us by the
government, regarding such things as our water plant.
We have found that the citizens do not want to spend any more money so
we are going to have to set our priorities, Donna feels our city crew
is a skeleton crew and they have been doing a good job. She feels we
need more communication and we will all have to work together to get
the most desperate things done first.
Richard asked for clarification when council members have been talking
about water systems. They stated that this includes the entire system
which is the water plant and water lines.
Bob Graham said the city is having an update of our water systems done
by HKM Associates and this report is expected soon.
In regard to a question about the wastewater plant, the Mayor said it
is fairly current but it does need some modifications to keep up with
the times.
The Mayor stated that often times the city sees a problem area arising
and we have a study done on it, but then it dies because of lack of
funding or we don't set a particular portion of the problem aside and
say we are going to address it. We need to address a large problem in
phases and this may require cutting in other areas. We seem to
address a little here and a little there and we patch this and we
patch that and we have now found ourselves 20 years behind.
To try and catch up the last 20 years in the next year, just will not
work.
Bob stated that Laurel has a drastic shortage of rental property in
this town, in fact we have a shortage of housing, period! We are
. running out of real estate where people can build homes. We do have
some elderly housing but it is not enough. Even with the additional
21 beds that will be added to the Care Center, they will be filled as
soon as they are available and there will continue to be a waiting
list. Bob said our medical facility is good because we have access to
Billings.
If you listen to the youth, they say there is nothing to do. Kids in
Billings complain too, but they have a lot more activities available.
The movie theater is about the only activity for them in Laurel.
In regard to development, Ron said the city has not helped out the
developers because we have not brought our own systems up to date to
where we can expend out or help the developers along. A lot of the
developers do not want to come in and assume the total financial
burden and hope they can sell the lots .later. There have been no
significant areas brought in or development done, for a number of
years, between 1984 and 1991.
In regard to a comment about Billings, Richard said that back in the
late 70's, early 80's, Billings did a lot of work on their
infrastructure and put in oversized water and sewer lines in many
areas and this now allows for additional development.
Richard stated that in the mid 80's, Billings stopped raw land SID
development. If a person wants to develop raw land now, they have to
put 50% of the money up front and the other 50% can be an SID. It is
not an easy thing to build a raw land development right now. Some
subdivisions bypassed areas and they are now having to come back and
fill in.
Gay Easton agreed with what Bob said regarding his concerns. Laurel
is located between a Class II and a Class III cities and we are
experiencing growing pains. We do not have the administrative
expertise to run our city and there is a breakdown between
administration and operation. Gay feels that the information that the
committees filter to the administration does not seem to follow its
course and it is not being completed. He feels this is our big
problem. We need to coordinate our working people and our
Page 3, Council of the Whole minutes, May 18, 1991
administration so we can get something done. We have confusion,
animosity, and people who are back--biting and it is not productive to
our system.
Gay said we are a small community and if your neighbor calls and wants
something done, you feel like you should do it even if it is not good
for the city. This is where we need direction from someone. If we
need to pay for someone who has the skills to handle these problems,
then so be it.
In regard to a question about finances, Gay said Don does a good job
administering the finances and the Budget/Finance Committee
understands their job. After this is done, the question is how are we
going to spend the money and this is the problem. Someone has to
organize it and as the saying goes, we have "to many chiefs and not
enough Indians".
Bob said he is real frustrated as a councilman because we have good
committees that meet often and come up with recommendations,
resolutions and ordinances and yet they seem to have no effect. Bob
does not know where the problem lies, but things are not getting
passed on and carried out.
John Minch stated that he has worked for the city for eight years and
there has always been a lack of communication between the crew and
management. This causes a lot of problems and turmoil and it has got
to the point where the crew won't say anything because nothing gets
done about it anyway.
Richard stated the problem in communication is that the council
perceives something one way and the crew sees it from a different
perspective and the two do not match. This could be part of the
frustration that both sides are feeling. It is a communication issue
where the information is interpreted differently by different people
and what is urgent to one person may not seem urgent to another
person.
Discussion regarding how important it is to have employees participate
on the committees and take part in making decisions.
Gay said there is no system for checks and balance. Most often, you
have no idea whether something discussed in committee has been carried
out or not.
Donna said she would like to see what each council member thinks the
procedure is. When she gets a call from a constituent, she
immediately calls the Mayor and she assumes that the Mayor passes this
on to the correct person. Hopefully, this person is making sure that
something is done about the problem.
The Mayor said it depends on the nature of the problem. If it is
something that a committee needs to address, he will pass it on to the
committee chairman. If it involves something such as the streets, he
will go to either Dave or directly to the foreman.
Donna said she learned early on that she cannot tell someone what to
do. She always goes through the Mayor and he passes it on. As a
committee chairman, she does not feel it is her job to go out and make
sure a job gets done. She was wondering how other chairman perceive
their jobs?
Bob said he doesn't go to the Mayor very often. He usually brings
these problems up at the council meeting. If the situation is more
urgent, he will go to Dave or call a committee meeting to discuss it.
Richard asked Joe Leckie what the formal structure is for Laurel.
Joe replied that Laurel has a mayor/council type government. The
council is the legislative body and the mayor is the legislator/
administrator. As a Class III city, the only other required position
is the city judge.
Page 4, Council of the Whole minutes, May 18, 1994
Don Hackmann clarified that Laurel qualifies as a Class II city but we
do fall within a range where we can choose to be either and the
council passed a resolution to remain a Class III city.
The Mayor stated that we chose to remain a Class III city because if
we didn't, we would have to establish a full-time fire department.
The Mayor said what we are finding more and more is that we like to
see wages increase, but now we are getting wages and benefits so high
that it leaves no money left to do the maintenance. Pretty soon we
are going to have a complete system of people standing around being
paid to do nothing because we cannot afford materials to put them to
work.
In our structure of government, Richard said the mayor and council are
side by side with the mayor being administrator. In the line of
authority, the mayor is over the city attorney, city clerk, police
department, ambulance, public works, utilities, engineer, water and
sewer systems, cemetery and etc. There are several areas that are
kind of out there by themselves and they are the fire chief, boards
and commissions, city judge and the treasurer. The fire chief, boards
and commission do report to the council regarding their needs.
Richard questioned Joe Leckie whether this form of government requires
an elected judge?
Joe said that as a Class III city, we could have a justice of the
peace who would serve as a part-time city judge. If we chose to do
this, we would not have to elect a city judge. This is something that
the council can change, it does not have to be by a vote of the
people.
40 Under the
They have
In regard
treasurer
the counc
one.
Class III city, a volunteer fire department is allowed.
their own by-laws and everything.
to the treasurer's office, the Class III city allows the
to be appointed by the mayor on the advise and consent of
il. The clerk and treasurer's positions can be combined into
Richard questioned how this was set up and Joe said he assumes it was
done by a vote of the council. Joe read from the statutes saying,
"The city or town council may abolish, by a majority vote of the
council, any office except that of city judge. The appointment, which
is made by the mayor, would be on the advise and consent of the
council. and may discharge any officers so appointed."
Richard said that administration wise then, all operations except the
fire department, the judge and the treasurer's office are administered
by the mayor and he is responsible and accountable for them. If you
have a problem that deals with the personnel of the city, you go to
the mayor, either directly or through the structure of the council.
In regard to the mayor's position, Richard questioned what stipulates
whether the mayor's position is full-time or part-time.
Joe said this is by the direction of the council. The mayor can spend
as much time as he wants and the council can adjust the compensation
for this position. In the statutes for the mayor's position, Joe read
that you cannot pay less than $ 350.00 per month for the first year of
service and an increase of 1% of the minimum monthly base salary for
each additional year, up to 20 years.
After listening to the council, Richard identified areas he
understands the council to be concerned about. We are talking about
water and sewer systems, storm sewer system, streets, sidewalks, curbs
and gutters, EPA requirements on water treatment and solid waste
facilities, recreational needs such as the swimming pool, skeleton
crews, shortage of rental properties, subdivision development and
youth needs.
Page 5, Council of the Whole minutes, May 18, 1994
Richard questioned our needs for capital equipment and the council
stated that the city is hurting in this area also.
Outside of the above needs, Richard said he is picking up on confusion
and animosity among the crews, engineering and maintenance needs from
a manager's standpoint, too many chiefs and not enough workers, and a
lack of communication where the committee's recommendations are not
being carried out.
Bob said he is confused and is wondering what position it is that we
need to fill in the maintenance department. With the Mayor on top and
Dave Michael as Utilities Director, we have a gap in mid-management
and Bob is wondering what we need to fill it.
Richard asked the council what they feel our management needs are?
Bob said he feels the city does not need an engineer. These services
can be farmed out on a contract basis. He feels we need a maintenance
director who will work directly through the mayor to make sure the
wishes of the council and the wishes of the people of our city get
done. Bob feels we need someone who is firm and a really good
communicator to work with the crew.
Donna said Bob referred to Dave as the Utilities Director and she
clarified that he is not. He is everything right now and it is too
much for one person and that is why things are not getting done like
they should.
Richard commented that from talking with Dave, he is in overload.
Everybody above him and everybody below him, comes to Dave and as a
consequence, he is not able to properly serve anyone.
Albert feels we need an engineer. He feels the engineer could take
care of the working foreman and he feels the foreman should take some
responsibility. We have a lot of inspections that are required and we
cannot be running to Billings for an engineer to do these things.
John commented that if we hire an engineer and expect him to cover all
engineering aspect of the city, he is going to have to be so well
rounded in everything that there is probably no one with these
qualifications.
Ron said we are looking at a mid-manager, someone between the mayor
and the crew. This person has to be outside the union so when
problems arise, they can take care of it. To his knowledge, he has
never known a working foreman to take disciplinary action over a
subordinate. It is too hard for one union member to levy discipline
down on another union member.
John said that if directions came down the chain of command and the
foreman told the lead worker what he wants done today and the lead
worker takes the crew out and the work does not get done, then the
chain of command can be reversed and he can go back to the foreman.
John said that right now, nothing like this is happening and they
can't get anything done when there is a problem.
Ron said the attitude seems to be that if it doesn't get done, so
what. He feels the problem is that no one is being held accountable.
Donna said she doesn't know if an engineer is geared for the
supervision part that we need. She said she has known a lot of
engineers and they know their engineering, but often times they cannot
work with people. This is not what they have been trained to do. The
position we need filled is one where a person can come in and work
with the crew and get everything working together.
Ron said Jim Worthington made a comment to him that his actual
engineering work involved approximately 2% of his time. The rest
involved working with the public, supervising the crew and organizing
different things.
Page 6, Council of the Whole minutes, May 18, 1994
Bob said obviously we need both but this town cannot afford both, so
we are left to make a decision about which one we choose.
In regard to a question from Richard about what kind of person we
need, Donna said she doesn't know if we can find that special person
who will fill our needs. We need a unique person to run the city, to
take the jobs and make sure they get done.
Comments were made regarding the wage for our previous engineer and
the response we received for our advertisements.
Richard related his experience in working with Livingston when they
hired a city manager. He said you have to set the salary for the
caliber of person you want to get because those who are qualified are
going to be looking at the salary.
John Minch said he thinks we need a person who is a combination of
both engineer and maintenance director. He needs to be so
diversified. He has to be able to get along with employees, the
public and he has to know everything from the water and sewer to the
garbage and everything in between.
Richard stated that Dave carries licenses for both the water and sewer
plants. If he is qualified in these areas, would it be a benefit to
split the responsibility between the maintenance director and a
utilities director?
The council responded that this is the way it use to be and Dave was
the utilities director.
Richard asked the council if they would want a maintenance director to
have a background in utilities, streets, solid waste, cemetery, parks
and have management ability as well?
is Donna said this is unrealistic. That is what Dave is doing and it is
too much.
Bob said when Dave first became management, he concentrated on the
water, sewer and garbage departments. Bob's idea is to let Dave
handle the water and sewer departments and maybe take the garbage
away. He would handle the water and sewer, supervise the crews in the
plants, help out in the office and help out with engineering duties
that he is familiar with.
If we had strictly a maintenance director, he would handle the crews,
other than the ones in the plants, take over the garbage department
and make sure the streets are being taken care of.
Richard asked for clarification regarding what is considered in the
water or sewer departments.
Bob stated that this would include both the plants and the
distribution systems.
Richard said there would be personnel that would fall under both
supervisors, depending on what they are doing that day. It would take
coordination between the supervisors.
Gay said he feels an engineer is only needed for surveying work or for
building sites. Once this initial work has been done, Dave or a
maintenance director can do the subsequent inspections.
Richard cautioned that you want to make sure that the engineer takes
responsibility for the final outcome.
inspections, but the engineer is responsible
done right and he would not suggest that the
engineer until the project is totally done.
Donna asked the Mayor if he meets with Dave
be done and the Mayor said they used to meet
Dave can do periodic
to make sure the job is
city relieve a consulting
to discuss what needs to
on a day to day basis.
Page 7, Council of the Whole minutes, May 18, 1994
If there is communication between the Mayor, Dave and a new person,
Donna questioned why they can't use the crews where they need them.
It was stated that they can do this
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someone set priorities. There has to be thought and planning on a
daily basis, so you can send your crews where they are needed.
Richard said he has found that the last half hour of the day is
usually a slower time of day for the management team. This is a good
time to program yourselves, on a daily basis, to sit down and go over
what needs to be done the next day and coordinate it all. In this
way, the crews will know just what they are suppose to do and they can
get started.
John Minch said we need someone between Dave and the crew at the shop.
If Dave says he will check something out and get back to you, often
times they are left not knowing if anything ever did get done. There
is no one to follow up and make sure that the council knows about it.
Richard said a lot of what John is saying is due in part to the
overload situation that Dave is in.
John indicated that this situation has been going on even when we had
a full staff and things were not so hectic.
Through the interview process, Richard said all employees were very
candid. All acknowledged that there is a very serious problem in the
shop area, much of it due to a lack of communication. A phrase to sum
up their feelings is "they desire direction". This is someone that
will give them instruction, someone they can go to to receive answers,
someone who is firm and someone that will see that the jobs get done.
At this time, Richard said we don't have a chief operator at the water
plant and we didn't get anyone applying for it because of the wage.
As a council, you have a responsibility to look at the structure.
Richard said the employees desire a maintenance director. At the time
when the city did have this position filled, along with the utilities
director and assistant public works director, the employees felt this
was the most effective management we have ever had.
Looking at a broader picture, Richard said the department heads have
been given a responsibility to run their departments, but the council
needs to make sure they have the responsibility, with the authority
given to them, to make hard decisions that need to be made. This
would relieve the overload on the mayor.
Richard suspects that some of the department heads do not want to make
a decision and they are pushing it to the mayor to make a decision.
He is referring more to personnel issues, where the department heads
should be addressing them. If this was done properly it would, to a
large degree, eliminate a lot of problems.
Richard said the city has a good group of loyal employees but they
have expressed their frustrations through the interview process.
Richard said his concern is that if we put this together, is the city
going to be able to pull together the financial resources to get it
done and get the best person available. The savings of a few thousand
dollars will end up costing you many thousands of dollars in the long
run.
Bob asked Richard if he can give us his recommendation before we
finish the budgets.
Richard said his commitment was to get this done by June 1st.
Discussion and it was stated that the recommendation is necessary by
this date but the job descriptions will be turned in the following
week.
Budget/Finance Committee will meet on June 1st at 4:30 p.m. and
Richard will give his recommendation for the position so it can be
Page 8, Council of the Whole minutes, May 1.8, 1994
taken into consideration for budget purposes. He will submit the job
descriptions to the council by June 10th for their review.
The Mayor stated that regardless of what title we advertise for this
position, this person must meet minimum requirements. Do they have so
many years experience in public works and/or engineering, etc.?
Richard said he senses that there is a concern over changing a name
from maintenance director to public works director and he is wondering
if he's reading the council correctly?
Don Hackmann stated that on our books we have the following positions,
engineer, public works director, assistant public works director,
utilities director and maintenance director. The way it is set up now
is that when we do not have an engineer, the director of public works
must meet -the qualifications of an engineer.
Richard asked the council which they preferred over the crew, a
maintenance director or a public works director?
Bob and Ron stated they would prefer a public works director.
Gay stated that the title, public works director, implies that they
are over all things and the title, maintenance director, implies
segregation or separation. He found this to be true when he worked at
the school.
John questioned whether anyone within the city has the chance of
working their way into this position?
Richard said this would be wide open for all positions except the
engineer's position. What he is looking at is determining the
qualifications that the council is saying they need in this person.
If there are people on the crew that can meet these qualifications,
then he cannot see a problem there. Off the top of his head, he feels
there are probably three people with the minimum qualifications on the
crew. This would be an exempt position and they would be applying for
a job outside the union.
Richard said there is one institution of learning that people fail to
give a lot of credit to and that is the institution of hard knocks.
Richard said the council has given him some real insight tonight.
From his observations, the council has identified almost all the same
problems that the crew has identified through the interview process.
He will give his recommendation for the position at the Budget/Finance
Committee meeting on June 1st.
The meeting adjourned at 7:40 p.m.
Respectfully Submitted,
Don Hackmann
City Clerk