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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCommittee of the Whole Minutes 02.22.199421 C MINUTES SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE FEBRUARY 22, 1994 5:00 P.M. COUNCIL CHAMBERS MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman - Chuck Rodgers Ron Marshall Albert Ehrlick Gay Easton Chuck Dickerson Donna Kilpatrick John Minch Bob Graham Lonnie Kellogg OTHERS PRESENT: Don Hackmann Vicki Metzger The purpose of this meeting is to discuss what avenues are available for the city to take regarding the vacancy in the engineering department. Chuck said there are many different options available and this could include combinations of the Engineer, Director of Public Works, Maintenance Director and/or hiring consultants or contracting for services. In regard to a duties take ab, is spent with and overseeing duties can be engineer. question, Dut 5%-10% supervisi state and preformed Chuck said the actual engineering of the time. The rest of the time on management, surveying, staking, federal regulations. Most of these by someone who is not a licensed John asked what the cost difference would be over a three year period between hiring a full time engineer or paying a consulting engineer when needed. Chuck said we really do not know what the difference would be at this time. Bob Graham commented that Laurel is going to have trouble getting and keeping an engineer with the salary that we offer. From the time that Peggy started, she was looking for another job. We are going to have to pay a pretty good salary if we intend to attract a person who is going to stay and make Laurel their home for any length of time. It was stated that this job has and could possibly attract again a person who is looking to retire in a few years. But, with this type of person, you are looking at a possible three to five years of service before they would retire and then the hiring process would have to start all over again. Gay commented that as long as he can remember, no engineer has worked over three years. Either they retire, quit 0 because of health reasons, or use this job as a stepping stone to a higher paying job somewhere else. Page 2 City Council Committee of the Whale M Ron said he would like to raise the salary and look for someone in an age bracket where they could be here for a long time if they so choose. Gay presented his ideas on the situation. He said you have different areas within the city which include the water plant, sewer plant and the crew who is in charge of the streets, cemetery, and parks. A maintenance director could be hired who would be in charge of the cemetery, streets, parks, water and sewer lines and building inspections. A utilities director would be in charge of the water and sewer plants and the swimming pool. Gay said Dave has been taking care of most of this and doing a good job but there is only so much that he can handle. At this time, we don't want to jump in and hire an engineer at an increased salary until we look at all our options. In regard to the plants, the technology is increasing all the time and it is too expensive to hire someone with the knowledge from the outside. We need to start at the bottom and as the employees gain experience and knowledge, we can promote from within. It was stated that we had a maintenance director that we had trouble with but Gay said that this may have been our fault for not "watch dogging" as closely as we should have. It was stated that we are taking a chance with anyone that we hire and it is not a reflection an the position. Bob Graham commented on someth degree above a rumor and may There is a movement within the where the counties would take inspection duties from cities, if this ever happens, it would duties away from the engineer. ing that he said was only one be a long time in coming. State and talk in the county over all building and plan if agreed to. Bob said that take a great deal of work and Chuck said the problem with this is regarding how long a contractor would have to wait for an inspection. Bob said that in light of this, he tends to agree with what Gay is saying about }'airing a maintenance director and make sure this person has the qualities to be a good boss. Gay said he hates to say it or think about it, but we are getting to the point where we need someone like a city manager who can get things together, has the knowledge of our city and can stay on top of everything. Gay said we 40 can't afford this either. John said we have someone down at the shop who he feels can do what is being talked about and that is Andy. He knows the streets and the water and sewer lines throughout town. Page 3 City Council Committee of the Whole F-1 LJ It was stated that this is a possibility. Ron said there is a lot to look at. He would not be opposed to a maintenance director and if we put the engineering out for consulting, we may be able to rely on Jim Worthington for another year or so but, he is not always going to be around. Ron said ultimately, we could get ourselves into a position where we get consulted to death. Gay said we are floundering right now because the federal regulations are coming down on us and our knowledge is not there so we are having to tie someone else into our thinking. If possible, Gay would like to see us get by for the time being and direct the council to do something in the next year or two. Gay said we are going to have to rely on outside expertise such as HKM to help us get our heads above water. Maybe we could put out a study and let someone determine what our problem is and help us find a workable solution. Bob said there may be the possibility that the city will have to look at letting out some of our work to private companies. Gay asked who would determine this? Would there be a director who decides or would it fall on the council? Bob said he would hope that the council would keep the power to make such a decision. In regard to a comment, Bob said that with insurance, workers comp., and other benefits, it is getting harder to hire employees to do the jobs. It may be cheaper to have the job farmed out to a private company. Chuck said one thing we have to look at is our equipment. A lot of it is well outdated and old and we are struggling just to keep the maintenance up on it. Chuck said we need to look at this realistically. Can we afford new equipment or is it going to be cheaper down the road to hire a contractor who already has the equipment to come in and do the work? You also have to consider the cost in employee benefits and weigh the situation. Either we are really going to have to make this town grow or we are going to have to make some major changes. Gay talked to the City Clerk and said that if we hired an engineer for $ 35,000.009 it would cost us an additional $ 41 12,000.00 in benefits. This is definitely something to think about. Bob said as long as we are throwing things out, we don't know what the state legislature is going to do in the future Page 4 City Council Committee of the Whole regarding gambling money. How long are we going to be able to keep it? Bob said things could get worse and he anticipates this before it gets better. Bob said he has been reading the book that we had HKM Associates do in 1988. They recommended that many different things be addressed and we have not done this. Bob said he doesn't know if it has been the change in engineers over the years or what, but things have not been addressed like they should and it is scary. More discussion about the need to get someone knowledgeable at the top, who can oversee the departments and get the things done that need to be done. Gay said the Mayor is working so many hours that he is putting his own job in jeopardy. Maybe we need a full time mayor or business manager. It was stated that if we get someone very knowledgeable, we are going to have to pay for it. Chuck said we need to be prepared for the growth of the town when it comes and that is where we have been falling down. The water systems need to be upgraded and it is going to cost. We have a lot of things that Chuck feels are going to take some good consulting or engineering work to help us through. It was asked where we are going to get the money for this. Chuck said this is the big problem and it always has been. It's not that we don't want to do these things but rather, that we don't have the money for them. We've never had the funds to follow through with a project. Chuck Dickerson said that if we go with a consulting engineer, are we going to have to go out for bid each time or would we bid out all street or water line repairs at one time? Chuck said these are questions that we would have to look into. We would have to contact different companies and people and see what is available and what services they are willing to offer. Would one company have enough knowledge to address all areas or would we contract out to different companies on the basis of the job? We would have to sit down and talk with each one and find out their area of expertise. 40 Bob said we have an immediate need and we have to act. He recommends that we go out and look for an individual who is very strong in the area of labor management and get them as a personnel and maintenance director. This would get Dave Page 5 City Council Committee of the Whole is back to his area of expertise at the plants. Then we could continue to study the other problems that we are facing. In regard to the duties Dave is preforming, Chuck Dickerson questioned why the foremen in the different areas are not making decisions on their own? Chuck said you have to remember that you have a management side and a union side. During the last negotiations, the city tried to get a lead supervisor and change the foremen positions to lead personnel and the union would not go for this. Chuck said one person giving directions is better than four pulling different directions. John asked if you could make a working maintenance director? Ron said this position would be a management position and if someone from within was awarded it, they would have to get out of the union. It was stated that the city could post the job as a management job with the stipulation that if someone from within was awarded the job, they would have to get out of the union. Chuck said he does not feel a working maintenance director would work. You cannot be on both sides of the issue and do your job effectively. There was more discussion regarding the need to separate management and union positions and how employees in the past have worked themselves up through the ranks and into management. It was stated that the person filling this job must have the qualifications and if someone from within does not meet the requirements, then you would hire from outside the city. The question was asked whether an employee who takes a management position, could ever drop back into the ranks if he was not able to handle the position? It was stated that this would have to be clarified before hiring would take place. Bob asked if we are within our legal bounds to do some changing or would this violate a charter? Don Hackmann said we do not have a city charter and this is within our right to make these changes. This brings up another area which is job descriptions. According to ADA, every job description we have is obsolete. Don has seen what is required and they go into great detail. They are no longer simple one page descriptions. Don suggested that we may want to get a consultant in to go over our descriptions and help us make sure they comply with ADA regulations. Page 6 City Council Committee of the Whole Gay said he would like to see us not rush, into anything right away and maybe hire some consulting people who could look at our situation and help us determine just what it is we need. He feels it would be money well spent. It was stated that contract negotiations will not be up for another year. This year it is a matter of wages only. Gay clarified that he feels we need to hire a maintenance director now to help take the pressure off of Dave and then do a study and see what our long term needs are before hiring an engineer. It was stated that Jim Worthington is interested in keeping his insurance and he may be interested in working a few hours, as long as it is not enough to interfere with his social security benefits. It was the consensus of the council that we definitely need someone to oversee the crew. It was stated that this comes down to a budgetary issue. How much would we pay a maintenance director and what could we afford in consulting or engineering fees? It was stated that a maintenance director's salary would have to be at least $ 30,000.00 which would put it a few thousand above the foremen positions. Chuck said do we want someone who is just willing to do bits and pieces or do we want someone who will dig in and help to build and structure a program? He would hope that we get someone who would take the bull by the horns and help co-ordinate and organize everything and take control of it. It was stated that everyone realizes that to get the type of person we need, we are going to have to raise the salary to a competitive level. There was discussion about the possibility of combining different areas into one and this would eliminate a couple foremen positions. It was questioned whether the city can eliminate positions in the union and John said it would have been a perfect time to put the garbage under another area when the foreman's position was up for bid. The city had the right to not fill this position and another foreman could have taken control and this would have eliminated one spot. John said he and others realize there is no need for four foremen at the shop. More discussion regarding wages and benefits and it was stated that we need to check around and find out what range we need to be looking at. Page 7 City Council Committee of the Whole Discussion about consulting services and Don stated that Dick Larson, former City of Billings city manager, has his own private consulting service and has done consulting for other cities. He may be someone that you want to visit with. We need to give him our ideas that have come from this meeting and get some direction. It was stated that; Dave cannot go much longer shouldering all the duties which include carrying a pager at all times. You cannot do it all without some area suffering. More discussion about restructuring and in an effort to find the money to pay the higher wage to a maintenance director, there was discussion of eliminating a couple of foremen's jobs. Don said that if this is done, it will leave the crew short. It was stated that if we contracted out some services, then we could get by with fewer people on the crew. Donna said we need to make sure, before we hire a maintenance director, that this is what we want. Once we do it, we cannot change our minds and decide we want something different. It is going to be a big decision right now. • Chuck clarified that when you are talking about eliminating foremen positions, you are not talking about eliminating a person, only eliminating the foremen part of the position. Don said that if you do this, the previous talk of savings has been overstated. You would not actually be saving a great deal. If you take away the duties of the foremen, the city would still have to pay their current wage. A saving would only be realized over a period of time when a new employee is hired at a lower wage than what the foreman is making now. Chuck said we need to look at salaries and what other towns are paying. Ron said he feels we need to make a decision within two weeks because spring will be upon us soon and it will take two months to hire someone. It was the consensus of the council that we need to hire a maintenance director or someone who can help reduce Dave's work load now. Then we can take more time and look at our long range goals and what would best fit our needs. Lonnie Kellogg disagreed and said he feels we need to get an engineer.. We have federal regulations coming down that are beyond any of our expertise. We have found this already in the garbage department and the water plant. There is building that is going to take place and Lonnie feels we A , i Page 8 City Council Committee of the Whole C-l find out what pay scale we are looking at. Dave could then be put back in charge of the water and sewer plants and the swimming pool. Lonnie feels we then need to make one foreman a lead foreman over the others and he would take the pressure off the engineer's office. The engineer would delegate the duties to this foreman who would take charge of the crew. This would take some of the personnel problems off of the engineer's office and he could concentrate on the federal and state regulations that need his attention. Ron said the one problem he sees is with discipline. It is hard for one member of the union to discipline another. Lonnie clarified that if there is a refusal to work or discipline problem, it would come back to the engineer through the foreman. Bob said this sounds real good but he wonders if we can hire someone who actually has the knowledge of all the regulations. Jim Worthington is a very qualified engineer and yet, he admitted that he did not have the expertise for certain things and the city still had to contract out services to Geo Research and HKM Associates. We might end up with an expensive engineer and still have to contract out certain services. Even though Dave is shouldering a lot of responsibility right now, Don cautioned the council not to put a two or three week time frame on it because whatever decision is made, you have to live with it. The meeting adjourned at 6:12 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Don Hackmann City Clerk 0