HomeMy WebLinkAboutPublic Utilities Committee Minutes 06.12.1989
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M I N U T E S
ities COMMITTEE
-- Puhlic Date June 12, 1989 Time 5:00 P.M.
Place of Meeting City Hall
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman L.D. Collins
Bob Graham Richard Barnhardt
Mel Baker
OTHER'S PRESENT:
.Mr. & Mrs. Ray Hazen, 909 7th Ave.
Mr. & Mrs. Nelson, 913 7th Ave.
Vic Hergett, Plumber
Ben Deines, Deines Excavating
A quorum (3 or more) present, the following action was taken
by the Committee:
Verbatim minutes of the June 12, 1989 Public Utilities meeting
and letter by Dave Michael as to his findings upon inspection.
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L.D: We will call the meeting of the Public Utilities to order.
Graham: As I was telling the Chaixrman, Mr. Collins, is that because of the
emergency Union meeting, if you hear screaming and hollering that's where
it is coming from. The City Engineer couldn't be here. What we are going
to do tonight is tape , the tape recorder is on, your testimony, and Ray we
will start off with you and get this on tape. So..
Mrs. Hazen: Well that's fine, but I'd like him to be here!
Graham: He will hear it and he will have an answer to reply.
Mr. Hazen: He's got an answer to everything!
Graham: Ray, why don't you go ahead and tell us what happened, like you told
it to me and we will go from there.
Mr. Hazen: Well, it started 2 years ago...
L.D.: Cone up here and sign in, if N.rou would. Then I can have your name and
everything on here. Then I will know who is here.
Mr. Hazen: OK, it started two years ago. It think it was, what?
Mrs. Hazen: March 25th.
Mr. Hazen: Of 86.
Mrs. Hazen: 87!
Mr. Hazen: Yes, 87. Water was caning in in the drain in the basement. So,
I called the City and they came up. It was 7:00 at night and they came up and
said they checked the manholes on Maryland and 9th Street and said there was
the same flow in each manhole and that it was ground water coning in. So,
about 11:00 (Fen) it starts draining down.
L.D.: What is your address?
Mr. Hazen: 909 7th Avenue. So, then about 7:00 the next morning it came in
again about twice as fast as it did the night before and so I called therm
again and it seemed strange to me that they seemed like they had somebody
standing by to cone up, because they were up there immediately. As soon as
they came up and put, whatever they call it, their jet rodder, it immediately
drained out. And I am not talking about just a little bit in the basement.
I am talking about 3 inches over the whole basement.
Graham: So, when they jet rodded that the water immediately began to go out?
Mr. Hazen: Then water started down immediately.
L.D.: Is this the place where they put in the new drain?
Graham: No. Ray will give you that information later on. He put a whole
new sewer line in.
Mr. Hazen: So we tried to get satisfaction out of the City then, but couldn't
get any. We sent a claim to the insurance company and everything but the
insurance man kept giving us all kinds of excuses. He finally came up that
unless I could prove that the City was negligence I couldn't collect on it.
And, I felt that the City was negligent when they didn't jet rod it out the
first night instead of waiting until the next morning and letting it flood
again.
L.D. Is this the one where the drop was insufficient?
Mr. Hazen: According to the plumber the drop was sufficient! And, besides that,
what does the drop have to do with, its the heigth of the basement and sewer.
It has nothing to do with the drop. If the sewer cones back into my basement
it doesn't matter what the drop is. That doesn't affect it coning back into
the basement. Well anyhow everything was alright for 2 years. But this year,
at the same time approximately, I don't know for sure when it came in because
I don't go down into the basement every day. I went down and it had flooded.
So, I cleaned it up and had to go down and get the rug cleaner and suck up all
the water that was down there and clean it. And, a week later it comes up
again, for the second time.
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Graham: For the third time.
Mr. Hazen: Well, yeah, actually for the fourth time. It was two times in
87 and then two times also in 89.
Barnhardt : Is this a finished basement.
Mr. and Mrs. Hazen: Yes.
Barnhardt: Are you talking damage to the carpet, and what else?
Mr. Hazen: Well, there was alot of stuff dawn there. My boy had, what, about
150 records.
Mrs. Hazen: Oh, about $1000 worth of records, between him and us.
Mr. Hazen: But the paneling didn't seem to be damaged, except for a couple of
inches on the bottom.
Barnhardt : What do you estimate the damage?
Mr. Hazen: With the rug I don't have any idea what the cost would be. It
cost $1000 to put it in in 79.
Mrs. Hazen: 72.
Mr. Hazen: 72.
L.D.: And it costs twice that much now. Probably $2000.
Mr. Hazen: Yeah. So after I called...
L.D.: Why do you suppose; now I am trying to picture this on my own. Why do
you suppose it canes in at only that time of year?
Mr. Hazen: Well, I think you have a, you know you've got...after I called
them that first time...
Mrs. Hazen: On the 10th of March they came up, the City, and they said there
was an obstruction.
Graham: This was in 87?
Mrs. Hazen: No.! Now!
Graham: So, this was the 10th of March, this time.
L.D: So, you went for 3 years...
Mrs. Hazen: They finally admitted it.
L.D.: You went for 2 years with it (the obstruction)?
Mrs. Hazen: He clowned around.
Mr. Hazen: For 2 years it didn't do anything.
L.D.: What was the obstruction, did they say?
Mr. Hazen: He said there was an obstruction this time, and when he brought
the thing out there was a clump of roots on the end of his...so the City
Engineer says its caning out of my sewer. That the roots were coming out of
my sewer into the main and that's why there are roots in the main. So, I put
a brand new sewer in, and you'll get testimony from the plumber that...
Graham: So, the 10th of March was when it backed up for the third time.
Mrs. Hazen: Yeah. After, it was two weeks.
Graham: And then it backed up again after that?
Mrs. Hazen: No, on the 10th.
Mr. Hazen: The 10th was the second time.
Graham: In 89.
Mr. & Mrs. Hazen: Yeah.
Graham: The second time was in 89. So at this tune then the Engineer again
told you that it was your line?
Mr. Hazen: Yeah.
Graham: So, then you hired Mr. Deines and Mr. Hergett.
Mrs. Hazen: Well, he said that there was an obstruction in the sewer line in
the alley.
Mr. Hazen: And he said it was coming from our line.
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Mrs. Hazen: But he said it was craning fiat our line.
Graham: Roots ratting out of Ray's line. So at that time you hired Mr.
Deines and Mr. Hergett to replace the line.
Mr. Hazen: Yes.
Mrs. Hazen: And there was nothing!
Graham: OK, would you two gentlemen like to tell us what you found up there
and so on and so forth? And in your opinion what you thought might of been
the cause of the problem, or if the problem was there? Just say your name, and
they will pick it up.
Deines: I am Ben Deines, owner of Ben Deines Excavating. We were hired by
Ray Hazen to replace the sewer line, and Ray wanted us to watch when we went
and opened the line up to make sure, to look to see if his line was obstructed
with anything or whether it was clear. And when we dug up the line all tile
that I brought up, you know I went all the way over the top of it because I
had to follow it all the way to the street. Then when I hook it to bring it
up to take the tile out I looked at the tiles and there were not roots on any
connections whatsoever. all connections that... the ground was real dry...so
none of the connections could of been leaking as far as leaking or roots
getting into them because the ground was dry under the pipe and everything.
The only thing we seen was right at the house next to the house was a few
hairline roots. But they weren't in the line they were around the clay tile
on the outside of it. There was a cast iron that went inside that one, so
they weren't in the cast iron. That was way up by the house and very little
of it.
Graham: OK, one of the things that I heard from Jim, talking to him, a few
minutes ago, and what I guess you gentlemen heard at the last Utilities
meeting was that the line, the old line not the new line, was improperly
installed. It was absolutely flat, and if not flat slightly tilted down. In
your opinion is there some foundation of fact of that?
Hergett: That was the first 4 feet coming out of the house and that wasn't
tilted that badly. The grade was perfect all the way out except that they had
a poor connection at the house.
Barnhardt . Did you shoot a grade on that?
Mr. Hergett: You betcha.
Barnhardt . I mean on the old line.
Hergett: I followed the old line out, so I didn't shoot one on that. But
I followed it exactly out in the same trench.
Barnhardt . So you don't know exactly what grade the old line was.
Hergett: 18 inches of drop in 89 feet.
Barnhardt That was the old line.
Hergett: That was the old line and the new line.
Graham: 18 inches drop in 89 feet.
Mr. Hazen: He just took out the old line and set the new line right where
the old line was sitting. They didn't take any...
Bam,,,ardt : So, they didn't drop the new line anymore?
Hergett: No. No.
Deines: So, when we picked up the clay tile, unhood the tile, we could see
where the tile had been laying, and that is what we followed right on out to
the main line.
Hergett: The City Engineer shot a grade on it every 20 feet after I had
installed it and the grade was sufficient all the way through.
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Mr. Hazen: He came up that the grade was wrong before because it had 6-inch
clay the saying that they had to put clay tile in because the drop wasn't
enough. I say they put clay tile in it because Mace got a good buy on it.
Graham: I checked on that, and Mace didn't build that house.
Mrs. Hazen: Yes he did!
Mr. Hazen: Well, we bought it from him.
Gr7h7m: Well, he sold it but he didn't build it.
Mr. Hazen: He didn't build it. It was a set-on house, but he did all the work
in the basement. He put in the shower and stool and everything in the
basement.
Graham: One other question. Let's see, I lost my thought.
Mr. Hazen: Well and also the last time it flooded my place I had the sewer
drain and the shower drain plugged up. It came up over the stool and
flooded. And while it came up over the stool and it also flooded 2 houses
down in their basement at the same time. We tried to get that man to cane down
tonight but he didn't want to get involved.
P-arnl"ardt : Did this flood to the previous owners as well?
Mrs. Nelson : No, two doors north. The sewer came back in their basement.
They called the City. They had not run any water and the sewer water came
back up into their basement, and she called the City office and they said
"it's your line". She said "I beg your pardon, when does water flush
backwards. We haven't flushed one bit of water."
Mr. Hazen: And that was the same time that mine flooded.
Graham: What was the name of that man?
Mrs. Nelson : Ed Hanel.
Graham: Ed Hanel. H-A-N-•E-L.
Mrs. Nelson : Yeah.
Deines: I think if the line wouldn't of been properly installed and laying flat
you would of found sediment or scene kind of a build up in the line. The line
was clean all the way through. Perfectly clean.
Hergett: It was running good.
Deines: But I never found no kind of sediment. If it had of been flat you
would of found some kind of sediment in the bottom of the line.
L.D.: I though Jim told us here that they tied onto the main sewer line before
he had a chance to inspect the line.
Graham: That was one of the questions that was brought up.
Mr. Hazen: He was in Billings at sane kind of a meeting and couldn't be there.
L.D: Who tied the line in?
Hergett: I did. I was the plumber on the job.
Graham: OK, this is Dick Hergett.
Hergett: Dick Hergett from Acme Plumbing and Heating. What was the question?
Graham: Jim, our City Engineer said he didn't have a chance to inspect it
because you had closed it up before he could get there.
L.D.: You tied it and closed it before he got there.
Hergett: I disagree with that. Dave Michael was the inspector on it but I
called for an inspection on it. Before I closed it up Dave Michael inspected
it.
L.D: But Dave Michael is not an inspector. `
Hergett: I know but he was the only one available and I guess that is why he
came up to inspect it.
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Deines: He came up and shot the line. Flisrand shot the line. we did not
back fill it or nothing. It was all open. And he even shot a grade on it.
Haw could he shoot a grade on it if we had it backfilled and closed up?
(Mr. Hergett is talking at the same time and I can't comprehend what he is
saying from tape)
L.D.: What he is talking about is the connection to the main line.
Deines: He had his stick on the pipe right on the line.
Barnhardt : And he inspected it before you closed it up?
Mr. Hazen: Oh, yeah. Sure he did. Flisrand was there.
(too many people talking at once to comprehend any of the conversation)
Deines . He just didn't see the connection into the sewer. On the sewer
there was a Y tied onto the main sewer. And, instead of clearing that out I
just hooked on that 8 bend. You couldn't look into that sewer, but beings the
sewer was clean all the way from the house all the way out I reached into the
main and that was in horrible shape. I just pulled out yellow soap and crude
that was built up on the walls of the main sewer. And, the problem was in the
main sewer. The reason they thought there was tree roots because there is a
row of poplars along that same alley and they are dynamite on any sewer. But,
their sewer only had tree roots that only went 2 feet deep. Beyond that there
was 6 foot sewer laid and there wasn't a root within 4 feet of that sewer all
the way out. And, there was none around the main.
Graham: You're talking about Ray's line?
Herc,ett . Yeah.
Graham: So, when you put your hand inside the City's main, why...
Hergett: I told the engineer that your troubles are in here.
And, he asked me what I found. I told ham I reached in there as far as I
could and scrapped out, because I wanted to see what the trouble was. There
was water, about 4 or 5 inches, where there should of been only 1 inch.
At this point in the tape, while transcribing, the tape recorder ate about
10 inches of tape, and it was not fixable, or transcribable.
L.D.: And your line dropped into it?
Hergett: Above that. Mine dropped into 8th then, and I'm above that.
L.D.: To the top of the main?
Hergett: 45 this time.
L.D.: See that is one of the problems I have with this. Take for example
this is the sewer main, it camas down like this. They drop an 8 bend and it
goes right into this main like that. That main would have to be running 14
inches full of water before it could ever start backing up that pipe. It would
have to be 14 or 15 inches full of water.
Deines: It would have to be 11 inches to be exact.
L.D.: Then it wouldn't be just 1 person having trouble it would be everybody.
Mr. Hazen: The only reason I am the only one having trouble is because
everyone else has a split level next to me. The other side of the street
is about 3 or 4 foot higher.
Graham. : When you opened that line up there was already water laying down
in there and you had it open:
Hergett: Oh yeah.
Ba.rn?,.ardt : You mean there was water in the main?
Hergett: Oh yeah, it runs, its suppose to run. Sometimes 4 or 5 inches at
one time. But this was an 8 inch sewer line and it was quite full, and it
wasn't moving very fast. I could just look in. You couldn't look around
the corner but you could look in from the 8 bend that was tied into the 45
on the top 45 part of the sewer. I could look in and see scme water standing
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which was quite deep but you couldn't tell what was wrong. So I just reached
in and I could see what the problem was. There was built up sludge and sediment
on the walls, even on the top. it was like that white yellow soap that builds
up and just hangs onto surfaces. It was hard and just...
Barnhardt: I have a question, and I guess its a judgement call. When you seen
that, instead of just tying in right away why didn't you get on the phone
and say hey get down here and get this thing cleaned out?
Mrs. Hazen: We tried!
(at this point of the tape everyone is talking at one time and I can't make
out the conversation)
Graham: Let Vic, Mr. Hergett, answer the question because he is the one that
is involved.
Hergett: The City Engineer was there before it was covered and I explained
this to him. He looked at the tile taming frcm the house and verified the same
thing that I thought that it was real clean ccming from the house. And he
indicated to me that they would get the machine up right away. In fact he told
Dave Michael we will get the machine up and clean that line out right away.
BmThar& . So, when you had it opened and you looked in there and you see
that that main had a problem, it was an obvious problem and was running full
and the sides were caked with debris and what not did you at that point try
to call someone and get them down there to show them that it had a problem?
Hergett: Dave Michael was there. Dave was there when I was tying into it.
. BmThardt : So he seen it?
Hergett: Well, he didn't reach in. When there is an 8 bend hiding it.
L.D.: Then we should get Dave Michael here.
Graham: He is at the same meeting as Jim Flisrand.
Bani)ardt . Did you tell him that the problem existed?
Hergett: Oh yeah we told Dave.
Banjm& : And he didn't bother to get down and look?
Hergett: Well, no, he was down there with me. I was tying and and then,
I didn't pull the line back out so that he could look, I should clarify that.
The line was tied in and I explained to him what it was. He didn't say to
pull it out. I told him the sewer was clear to the house but the trouble was
in the main.
L.D.: Did Dave pass it?
Hergett: You bet.
L.D.: Did he sign it?
Hergett: Sign what?
L.D.: Did he sign the inspection sheet?
Graham: Jim Flisrand told me that he did approve the line. Dave didn't say
a word, but Jim told me that he approved the line.
Hergett: I know he did, he approved it to me. He shot the grade.
Deines: Dave was actually there, Jim came back up. Jim was there when the
line wasn't completely open yet, so there is no reason why Jim, anybody should
pass the buck onto Dave. Dave did his job and Jim wasn't here at the time. We
had to get that thing closed up that evening yet if we could.
L.D.: The whole problem is that I wasn't there. And, I have to know who was
there, that's the thing. I want to know who signed the paper. If Dave Michael
or Jim Flisrand signed the paper then that is saying that they looked at it.
That's what I want to know. I want to know who said that they looked at it.
Graham: I was downstairs talking to Jim and he said he approve the line.
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Barnhardt: What I want to know is if they seen a problem then they should of
corrected it.
(Everyone is talking at once and I can't make out the conversation)
Hergett: The problem wasn't where I was working on it, the problem was in
that main line, so it didn't matter whether I closed it up or not. As long
as they knew.
Graham: The point that I personally want to get clear in my mind is if there
is a problem there now that can be corrected.. But the thing I want to get
clear here now for Mr. & Mrs. Hazen is the fact that if the problem existed
that caused their basement to flood is the City or our insurance company
resl Div ?l A:.r t-he da,«age cGw c: t? .__ lions=.,? Was it Ray's lin.E: t lat
caused it, or was it us that caused it?
Hergett: It wasn't his line that caused it.
Graham: That's what I want to get cleared as much as we can tonight.
Barnhardt: That was the purpose of my question. If the inspector would of
got down there and looked and said yes there is a problem then we probably
wouldn't be here at this meeting tonight.
Baker . But the thing about it is Richard, that he couldn't of told if that
was the problem or not if he had of gotten down there. That's why they have
that floating camera that goes down through the main to where the problem
is. And they are going to have to invest the money to do that.
Barnhardt: But he could of told that the problem was in the main.
. Px',er . He knows the problem was in the main, he told me that.
Mr. Hazen: The last time they cleaned out the sewer, whoever did it told me
there was an obstruction in the main line, the City's main line.
Baker The thing that bothers me is how did it get back in so fast in 2
years?
Hergett: He made a statement that the condition of the line made it seem like
there was a service station up at the end up there.
Baker . But there ain't that many houses above that.
Graham: OK, now Ben and Vic, in your opinion in testifying here tonight,
you do not think it was the problem with Mr. Hazen's line from the main
lin to his house?
Deines: I don't think it possibly could be. And, there is no reason possible
for me to side with anyone. I was here to just give the facts, and that is
all I want to do. That the line was perfectly clean caning out and I watched
every pipe that came out that I could see. There was no sediment underneath
and I began in the pipe that wasn't flowing right. It was mentioned that the
water wasn't flawing right.
Hergett: We mentioned also Ben and I both dug first 10 feet and the sewer was
in good shape. We stood there and debated should we go further, there's nothing
wrong with this. We decided we better go further, it might be further out. So
we went another 10 feet and it was still clean. by that time we was half way
through the lot and we debated some more. So, I said to satisfy Ray and
the City we better go out to the main with it. We went out to the main and
still found nothing. So, there we were with the expense there and nothing.
Mrs. Hazen: You got that right!
L.D: What was the expense of the new line?
Graham: Ray, what was your cost of putting the new line in?
Mr. Hazen: $1,051.43.
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Graham: OK. You are here tonight obviously for a reason. Would you like to
say something?
Mr. Nelson I wallered through all that crap in his basement!
(everyone talking and laughing loudly-)
Hergett: I believe you! I'm on your side. It was just the way you said it!
Dlr. Nelson : We even went down and got Albert Ehrlich and borrowed one
of his roto-rooters and we dawn the line as far as we could and brought it
back. There wasn't a damn thing in the line!
Graham: This was in 1987?
Mr. Hazen: Yes.
L.D.: Haw long was that line, Mr. Deines?
Deines: 106 feet from the house to the tap.
T"A-im-en'k What came back into the basement? Was it gray water or was it
sewage?
Mrs. Hazen: Are you serious?
Mr. Hazen: It was sewage.
Graham: So you saw it.
*r. Nelson : Yes. It was that deep in that basement. I think he is
entitled to a hell of alot more than $1,000.
Graham: So are you saying that when you roto-rooted it out with Albert
Ehrl ich' s roto--rooter nothing came out?
P-?r. Nelson : Not a damn thing came out!
L.D.: Well, I have a question and I think it is a question that we are all
going to cane up against here and it might be sanething that all of you will
. want to think about. Supposing we put the camera down the line and there
isn't nothing there?
Mrs. Hazen: Well, there is something there!
L.D.: I am saying that suppose we put the camera down there and there
isn't anything there. Then, have we corrected the problem or what?
Graham: Well, I'd say that is the next step.
Hergett: Just a minute, when are you going to put the camera down? They just
flushed it out the the pressure hose.
Mrs. Hazen: That man has told me for 3 months that he was going to do that
and he hasn't.
Mrs. ''Nelson He told the Hanel's when they called that they were going to
flush out the line every month. "We promise you we will flush that sewer line
every month." I haven't seen a soul up there.
Hergett: They were up there that next morning.
L.D.: Well, they must of flushed it or they wouldn't taken care of the
blockage.
Hergett: They were there the next morning because I went by and checked with
them.
Graham: So if the camera shows nothing now it could be for the fact
that they already flushed it out.
Hergett: That's right.
L.D: Well I don't think so and the reason I don't think so is that if it
occured in a 2 year span then it will occur again. There has got to be scme-
thing there that is not flushing out. There has either got to be a collapsed
line or the line has to be busted. Something has got to be causing a continuous
problem.
Mr. Hazen: I think the line is broken because both times that it did it, the
first time was right when the frost was caning up.
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Baker: To verify again what you are saying. When I lived on Pennsylvania
Avenue in 1956-57 and we had the same problem up there. That was before
they had all this fancy stuff to work on it and so we, in my house and down
at Alberts house, anyhow we had the same problem. It was coming back up in
through the bathtub. So, we got on the City. They went up behind us, out in my
yard and they went down in there. It was backed up clear to the top of the
manhole. Then they went down to the far end and run a roto-rooter back to it.
Well what had happened evidently was when Behm had built all of those houses
back there all the wood shavings and sawdust had gone down there and it lodged
just below my place. It backed up and I don't know why Alberts got it before
mine did. But his bathtub backed up. It was the same thing, they went
through with the roto-rooter and found 2 X 4's and junk. I think that is what
happened up there.
Mrs. Nelson . We have lived in our house, between these two places, for
15 years in August and we have had slow drain problems ever since we've lived
here. Vic Hergett came up and cleaned it the last time. He didn't go clear
out but we've had, off and on slow drain problems.
L.D.: What is your address?
Mrs. Neison .-: 913 7th Avenue.
Mrs. Hazen: They are a split level.
Mrs. Wp3son We've had Clarence Sonstergard up there. But it's slow.
Dave Stahl, 2 blocks up, has had problems. He's had people working on his
sewer line because it plugs. And that is north.
Graham: Is there anything else anyone wants to add?
Mr. Nelson I understand that they opened up both manholes, one north of
Ray and one south of Ray on the alley. Down at the South end the water was
about that deep and on the north end the water was just a trickle. Did anybody
hear that?
Graham: I heard that.
Mr. Hazen: On the north end it is just like it was when Vic looked in the
sewer by our place. It is deep and it is not moving very fast. Now whether
that is because of the obstruction down by my place or that the line is
flat there I don't know.
P,ernhardt : Have you looked at it since they flushed it?
Mr. Hazen: Well the last time I was there when they flushed it they had it
opened and they said it went down. But I could not see much difference between
before they flushed it and after they flushed it. So, I don't know.
Graham: The City crew that went up there, and I don't know who they are,
reported back that when they looked in the manhole that the water was flowing
the same rate north and south.
Mr. Hazen: That was in 1987, I think. And they didn't came up until the next
morning. But if it was the same in 87 as it was now. You go up and look at
it now it is running fast on 9th Avenue and barely running on Maryland. Like I
said, I don't know whether its the blockage or the main line is just flat.
Graham: That would be 9th Street, not 9th Avenue, right?
Mr. Hazen: Right.
Mrs. Nelson : What seems so strange is that 2 years ago when they had this
problem after everybody went to bed the water went down in his basement up
above us and started flushing running water , back it came into their basement.
. Mr. Hazen: That was when they said it was ground water.
Mrs. Nelson They said it was ground water.
Mrs. Hazen: They said it was ground water.
1•
10.
Barnhardt: With toilet paper floating around in it?
Mrs. Hazen: Tell me about it!
Mr. Hazen: He came around and looked at it, the first time he came
around and looked but he wouldn't go down and look the next morning.
Mrs. Nelson And we were there!
Barnhardt: Do you suppose our City folks here are paid extra to drink alot
of coffee?
L.D.: Richard, that is stupid on your part.
Graham: Yes, we don't need to get into that. Is there anything else that
you would like to discuss?
Mrs. Nelson . Well, we are concerned that we will get it next. The Hanel's
have plugged up their basement drains. They don't have showers or a stool.
They don't have a bathroom down there. But they have plugged their floor
drains. They've got theirs plugged. And we're worried that.
Mr. Nelson We're high.
Mrs. Nelson We're high, but...
Hergett: It's going to have to go all the way up to his ears before you're
going to get it.
Mrs. Hazen: I tell you. I want to have the sewer and the alley fixed, and I
want to have a new carpet!
Graham: OK, that is my next question, so we can get this on tape. I'll ask
L.D., who is the chairman, exactly what we can do because I am sure this is
going to have to go in my opinion to the full Council. But what would you two
like to be done?
Mrs. Hazen: first of all I want the sewer and the alley fixed. Secondly,
I want a new carpet in the basment. And if I can't have that you can buy
the bloody house!
Graham: Ok, and what about the new sewer line that you put in, do you want
to be reimbursed for that?
Mrs. Hazen: Yeah, I want that back!
Baker: Well, you just want to be reimbursed for all expenses incurred from
all of these problems.
Mrs. Hazen: Well, and what makes me so mad is that we tried to be nice the first
time. My husband cleaned up the carpet, did all the work, and the lousy
City insurance wouldn't even pay him'back for that. They said "Oh no, it's
your fault."
Barnhardt Do you have any kind of an itemized list?
Mrs. Hazen: We had it.
Mrs. Hazen: I can call your insurance company again, and see if they have it
because I put a claim in.
Barnhardt Well, you must have the cancelled checks and stuff.
Mr. Hazen: Oh yeah, I can find that.
Baker: The claim doesn't include the cost of putting the new line in, does it?
Mrs. Hazen: I don't know why not!
Baker: I was asking.
Mrs. Hazen: No, I haven't filed a new claim.
Barnh-I r!t r I think you should.
L.D.: I will take this to the City Council. Our City Attorney advises that
we ; as a Committee do not ever in any of Committee's say that the City is at
fault in any fashion. I am going to tell you that ahead of time, this is what
they advise us. So, we can't say that it is the City's fault. We can take this
as a Committee to the City Council, propose it to them, in open council. You can
be there at our next meeting. That will be...
11.
Graham: The 20th of June, a week from tomorrow.
Mr. Hazen: 7:00?
Graham: Yes. Oh that's going to be in the park. Oh that is great.
Mrs. Hazen: What?
L.D.: It's going to be in the park, City Park, our Council meeting unless
it rains.
Graham: It's part of the Centennial celebration. They voted miite awhile
ago to have 1 council meeting in the park. We are all going to dress up. I'm
not saying that it won't be a serious council meeting, because it is. But we're
going to be dressed up in western gear.
Mrs. Hazen: That's fine, but I just want something done about it.
Balser . No guns, fellas!
Graham: It will be up in the City Park up by Graff School.
L.D.: By the wading pool won't it?
Graham: The wading pool?
L.D.: We will present your problem to the City Council for their advice.
That's all we can do.
Mr. Hazen: Well, all we ask is do what you would do if it was your house.
Mrs. Hazen: How would you and your wife like it to have that cane into your
basement all the time?
L.D.: There is an apartment house right behind me that has a half basement
and has apartments down there. The man that used to be vice president of
the bank. He came over to my house one night, and it was raining cats and
dogs and everybody was getting flooded out. I went over with sandbags and
helped him sandbag the floor drain to keep the water out of his house. We
even blocked up his furniture. We lived down on the south end, and its bad
down there.
Mr. Nelson Off the record, you 2 fellows on the Council, what is your
opinion on this?
L.D. : We can't. Not here.
Baker: I am not on the council, I am an honorary Committee member, but I've
had the same problems.
Graham: These two are not on the council but they have a right as members
to express their opinion to the council on this matter.
Baker: I regret I am not on the City Council. It wouldn't do you a bit of
good..
Graham: If you would like to cane to the June 20th meeting.
Do-ir_es . You gentlemen are just the Utility board right?
L.D.. Yes.
Baker: My problem with this is, I understand your problem. I bought a house
in 1961 and these gentlemen both know it. And that problem that Friday night,
I had water that high up going by that was that deep because I haven't got
what I want. And, that's been since 1961. So, I have had my trouble with
City Engineers too.
Deines: I just personally feel that these folks replaced their sewer line
unnecessarily. From what I could check all the way down the line. That's why
we stopped several times. I even told Vic that this problem isn't in this
man's line. I said what are we going to do? I think we are putting this
line in for nothing. But we had to keep going to satisfy, to find wherever
the object was at. If we had of stopped there then someone could of come back
at us and said "it's down there, it's probably just a little further down
the line, or something." So, we had to go all the way out to the main to see
what was wrong. It followed the same pipe that we took out. The line that we
pulled out, the indentation there, Vic just had to clean it out to lay his line
just right back on it again
10
12.
Hergett: I had 18 inches of drop from the house to the 89 foot mark. And
that is sufficient and the City Engineer said that was sufficient because he
shot it every 20 feet. Right along the sewer where it was open he shot it
every 20 feet. And verified my figures at that time.
L.D.: About 4 of an inch per foot?
Hergett: No, the first 50 feet was run at 1/8 of an inch per foot. The last
40 feet was run at % of an inch per foot, and the last 10 feet was run at about
3/4 of an inch per foot. And he said that was sufficient.
Barnhardt: We got a completely different story then at the first meeting
then when he told us about that.
Graham: He told me the whole line was 1/8 of an inch.
L.D.: I thought for sure he said 1/8 of an inch.
Hergett: He shot it and he had his figures down. I told him what I had run
before he had shot it and it came out exactly what he...
L.D.: What did he say it was? How many feet?
Hergett: I'd say the first 40 feet was 1/8 of an inch per foot, the next
45 feet was 1/4 of an inch per foot, maybe a shade under 1/4 of an inch.
The last 10 feet wajs at least 3/4 of an inch to a foot because there was only 10
feet and that dropped pretty sharply. The reason that dropped sharply because
we held that line because I was worried about the grade. I followed their line
out not knowing what they had layed. Then I got out there and I had that last
drop. And he ok'd the same figures I gave him before he shot it. I told him
when I run it and he shot it and said yes that's what that is.
Deines: And also the trench was not closed fellas, it was wide open fellas.
L.D.: Yeah, he said the trench was open. What I was talking about was the
hook up to the main line had already been closed and he couldn't see into the
main line. He wanted to see if there was any water standing or backing up
in that main line. That's what he was talking about.
Hergett: Well, he had to take my word for that.
L.D.: That's what he said that the hookup was already made and he couldn't
look into the line.
Graham: Is that a copy of the records of the damage:
Mr. Hazen . This is just something else the records were in, that's next.
L.D.: Water damage is bad. It doesn't matter what you do.
Graham: Unless someone else has something to say, I thank you for coming
and the ...
Hergett: You say you have a meeting the 24th?
Graham: The 20th.
Hergett: Well, I don't know if I will be able to be there.
Graham: We have your testimony here. It will all be typed up and signed
and the whole works so that each member of the council will get this. So,
that is why I wanted to do this tonight so you wouldn't have to came back
again. I think Ray and his wife should be there. But your testimony is
on that tape and it will be official.
Hergett: Thank you.
Graham: Thank you.
0
City of Laurel
P.O. BOX 10
PHONE: 628.8791
LAUREL, MONTANA 59044
July 31, 1989
PUBLIC UTILITIES
DEPARTMENT
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
On July 10, 1989 at approximately 4:30 p.m., I was sent to 909
7th Avenue (Ray Hazen residence) to inspect the connection to
the sewer man of a replaced sewer line. I inspected the
connection which was a 4 inch PVC pipe placed in a 6 inch clay
fitting which was attached to the sewer main. The 4 inch
PVC pipe was in place when I arrived to inspect. The plumber,
Vic Hergett, placed rope packing around the 4 inch pipe inside the
6 inch clay fitting and sealed the connection with black plastic
cement. Only the top of the 6 inch clay fitting and main was
exposed during the inspection.
After talking to the City Engineer, Jim Flisrand, we returned to
909 7th Avenue to further inspect the connection and line. When
we arrived the connection and main was covered with gravel. The
City Engineer told me that he wanted to inspect the tap before
the connection was made. So, therefore, we shot the replaced
sewer service from approximately the alley west edge to the house
and found the grade to be only approximately 1/8 inch per foot.
The plumber, Vic Hergett, indicated that he raised the line at
the house as much as he could to give him grade to the alley
which is only 1/8 inch per foot.
t .
Dave Michael
Public Utilities Director
DAM/cl
City of Laurel is an EEO Employer